Redlion G3 - Trend View Verical Scale

Is there a way to activate the vertical scale for this control that is within a group of controls in Crimson 3.0 aptly named System "PRIMITIVES" ?

Tried using the Vertical scale bar. But, it is a pain to get it aligned properly because the Trend viewer does not display grid lines in design mode. Anyone has any tips on how to do this?

On this trend viewer, are Horizontal divisions alway's linear or can they be set none linear?

i.e.

Instead of this; This:
--------------- --------
100 --------- 100
75 --------- 50
50 ---------- 25
25 ---------- 1
0 ----------- 0

I have resorted to trial and error to get the built in scales to align with a trend. Use the emulator and various zoom levels depending on your screen/trend size.

Another method is to just overlay fixed text on the trend.

No way to have a non-linear chart unless you went to a whole lot of trouble to fake the data to make it "look" non-linear.

Thanks OkiePC,

I've managed to get it somewhat aligned after fumbling around with it for a while. Luckily, I had access to the Panel eventhough it was at the customer’s site. (don't like to do Trial and error stuff in front of a customer though). There's no way I could have done this if I was working without a panel and then were send the finished product to the customer.

About the G3......

Before I go ranting, I must say this is my first experience with a G3. Now I've used quite a few different HMI panels that are out there on the market. This so far, has been the most "TIME CONSUMING" one to get the "SIMPLE" stuff up and running on. Heck, it took a while to even figure out where the numeric keypad or how to get at it so I could test simple freaking setpoint. Navigating between objects is bit of a pain. Many mouse clicks are needed to select between primitives and other objects, etc., etc. it gets tiring when you are trying to do 10 different screens. It is not as intuitive as most other panels or even some of the crummier ones (is that a word?) that are out there. Heck, who puts out a trend viewer without axis indicators?

So for a first time user this is a time killer compared to most other screens. It's just too bad REDLION is somewhat lacking in basic built in stuff that we have come to expect. Now having said that;

PanelViews - Suck! But have some capabilities that others don't have.

PARKER-CTC - Little pricey for what you get and it's not much.

IDEC - Cheap. You get what you pay for.

EZ-PANEL (non CE version and Cell based touch screen) Sucks as far as graphics resolution is concerned and you can only put object that you later plan on clicking on in predefined touch areas, but works very reliably. (except for the touch cells that die-off.

C-More - Love this panel Even though it is lacking in some basic features. (Somehow I believe Ez-Panel and C-more might have been relatives at one point or at least lived in the same house in the past and then decided to go their own way. (Kind of like the Apes and Humans did with about the same end results). This panel has the potential to be a true GEM if C-more put a little more effort/power in to it. Very little time required to get this up and running. My preferred choice (while ignoring some of its limitations) or

And then there were few others that I don't even remember or care to remember.

THE RDLION G3

By far, superior to all others hands down, at least from what I can see what it is capable of. Just too bad one has go fishing around quite a bit for basic information. If they had better/complete examples and detailed documentation than what they currently have, in which the authors constantly tells you that the subject matter they are informing you about currently, is explained elsewhere in another section. Jesus, why not put all that (whatever that may be) in to a single page or a section, and then add the title of the feature to the table of contents. How hard is that? It is the “little” stuff like that, that is most irritating in trying to use this product. I still believe this can be an awesome product once one figures it all out. Only then can one truly unleash this little beast’s hidden powers. When that happens, it would be hard to justify using anything else.

I happened across this G3 accidentally. That is the original contractor vendor bailed out of the project due to them not being able to meet the required deadline. (they specked out the system including the G3).


Would I use/recommend one again? Absolutely, but only if I am able to get a week of play time, just between the two of us (me and the G3 that is), before it ends up at the customer.


Ok, I am done ranting, but just two other things and this applies to pretty much most of the HMI’s that are out there.


FAT-16 format for Flash cards? It’s 2011 for Christ sake.

640x480 resolution? Some $50 cell phones have far superior screen resolutions with touch capability.

Ok I am done now!

shiftedbits said:

Thanks OkiePC,

I've managed to get it somewhat aligned after fumbling around with it for a while. Luckily, I had access to the Panel eventhough it was at the customer’s site. (don't like to do Trial and error stuff in front of a customer though). There's no way I could have done this if I was working without a panel and then were send the finished product to the customer.

About the G3......

Before I go ranting, I must say this is my first experience with a G3. Now I've used quite a few different HMI panels that are out there on the market. This so far, has been the most "TIME CONSUMING" one to get the "SIMPLE" stuff up and running on. Heck, it took a while to even figure out where the numeric keypad or how to get at it so I could test simple freaking setpoint. Navigating between objects is bit of a pain. Many mouse clicks are needed to select between primitives and other objects, etc., etc. it gets tiring when you are trying to do 10 different screens. It is not as intuitive as most other panels or even some of the crummier ones (is that a word?) that are out there. Heck, who puts out a trend viewer without axis indicators?

So for a first time user this is a time killer compared to most other screens. It's just too bad REDLION is somewhat lacking in basic built in stuff that we have come to expect. Now having said that;

PanelViews - Suck! But have some capabilities that others don't have.

PARKER-CTC - Little pricey for what you get and it's not much.

IDEC - Cheap. You get what you pay for.

EZ-PANEL (non CE version and Cell based touch screen) Sucks as far as graphics resolution is concerned and you can only put object that you later plan on clicking on in predefined touch areas, but works very reliably. (except for the touch cells that die-off.

C-More - Love this panel Even though it is lacking in some basic features. (Somehow I believe Ez-Panel and C-more might have been relatives at one point or at least lived in the same house in the past and then decided to go their own way. (Kind of like the Apes and Humans did with about the same end results). This panel has the potential to be a true GEM if C-more put a little more effort/power in to it. Very little time required to get this up and running. My preferred choice (while ignoring some of its limitations) or

And then there were few others that I don't even remember or care to remember.

THE RDLION G3

By far, superior to all others hands down, at least from what I can see what it is capable of. Just too bad one has go fishing around quite a bit for basic information. If they had better/complete examples and detailed documentation than what they currently have, in which the authors constantly tells you that the subject matter they are informing you about currently, is explained elsewhere in another section. Jesus, why not put all that (whatever that may be) in to a single page or a section, and then add the title of the feature to the table of contents. How hard is that? It is the “little” stuff like that, that is most irritating in trying to use this product. I still believe this can be an awesome product once one figures it all out. Only then can one truly unleash this little beast’s hidden powers. When that happens, it would be hard to justify using anything else.

I happened across this G3 accidentally. That is the original contractor vendor bailed out of the project due to them not being able to meet the required deadline. (they specked out the system including the G3).


Would I use/recommend one again? Absolutely, but only if I am able to get a week of play time, just between the two of us (me and the G3 that is), before it ends up at the customer.


Ok, I am done ranting, but just two other things and this applies to pretty much most of the HMI’s that are out there.


FAT-16 format for Flash cards? It’s 2011 for Christ sake.

640x480 resolution? Some $50 cell phones have far superior screen resolutions with touch capability.

Ok I am done now!

Click to expand...

In the interest of balance, the Redlion G3xx series is the easiest display I have ever used and I have used alot - going back to the old DOS days.

I can get one up and communicating in less than a minute and I have found navigation to be fairly simple once you know what you are looking for (but this is the same with all displays). Yes there are some deficiencies, but when you look at the overall system, I wouldn't trade it for any other display.

As to resolution, buy the 15" and get 1024x768. This isn't wonderful, but you can cram more into that display than anyone ought to...

I agree that Crimson 3.0 makes you create some things from scratch that a purpose built HMI (already pointed toward a particular PLC) software package often does for me.

I had much less wasted time on my first G3 project, but there were a few hurdles. Now that I know how to start out (get my tag details right) and how to mass edit, I am at least 200% faster with Crimson than with Panelbuidler32 or any other package.

One suggestion for the editing of positions and sizes of objects, look at the object properties, and you will often find a field for position or size that will let you be pixel specific...you put in a number or bump it one or two pixels.

This can sometimes be easier than mouse operated adjustments and can work better when you get into animation.

Hopefully, the Red Lion team will improve their trend scales in the future as well as improve their documentation.

I started with Crimson 2 and it was a bit of a learning curve but I must say of the 3 I use the most (the other 2 or WinCC for Siemns and Panelview Plus for AB) I like it the best. Yes the G3 doesn't have alot of canned features but you can make them and usually you can make them better than on others. I really like the way I can create graphic images and give the objects functions.

I have used almost everyone you have listed and I will say this: Since Redlion came out with Crimison 3 I like it best and can get the most out of it.

FYI: The G3 Panel in my Lab plays Dixie everytime you start a test. The lab tech is from New Jersey but he smiles every time it sounds off.

OkiePC said:

I have resorted to trial and error to get the built in scales to align with a trend. Use the emulator and various zoom levels depending on your screen/trend size.

Another method is to just overlay fixed text on the trend.

No way to have a non-linear chart unless you went to a whole lot of trouble to fake the data to make it "look" non-linear.

Click to expand...

Thought I would make use of this thread instead of starting a new one since this is my issue also. I have been in contact with Red Lion tech support concerning the trend viewer. According to them you're supposed to be able to display the actual scale of a tag on the Y axis. I am waiting to hear back from them about this. I have tried to do this but haven't been able to so far. In reality I don't see how this would work if you have more than 1 pen on the trend. I believe in Factory Talk View the scale changes dynamically based on the pen you select. I have experimented putting a vertical scale on top of the viewer and that does work but I haven't yet been able to get it to align precisely with the trend lines. Has the software been updated to make this any easier?

As far as I can tell, it is still a manual operation. I have one app, with several trends, that I built over a year ago. When I had to align the scales, I used the emulator to test the alignment, and the position values to move it to the exact pixel location. (Select the object, then go to Edit, Position).

I am happy with the way it functions at runtime with one exception. I have one trend in which the labels appearing below the chart, just happen to occasionally move from fitting on one line across the width, to wrapping around when the values displayed change their width. Then they take two lines. The trend chart automatically shrinks to fit in the same space, but the scales do not. Today, I changed all the text label words containing "TEMP" to "TEMPERATURE" to make them longer and keep the trend the same size, but we shouldn't have to fiddle with things like this.

It's my opinion that the scales need to be attached to the trend primitive. The trends are lightning fast and easy to navigate at runtime, and I like they way they look and feel. Fixing those scales, though, needs to be on someone's priority list at Red Lion.

Also, I have a need to be able to use the same navigation buttons for two different trends. I have a trend chart for digital tags and one for analogs for each of four air handlers. It would be nice to be able to pan and zoom through the data and keep the digital and analog trends aligned with each other. Also, I want my attached scales to be selectable for either or both edges.

Looks nice Okie. I'm still waiting for Red Lion tech support to respond to how the Y axis is supposed to be displayed natively without the need for adding the vertical scale. My guess is that if this was possible you would have done it this way already.

On my trend viewer properties, I have the values for min and max set to constants. This controls the y-axis scaling. I suppose you could use tag references there if you need to make the y axis dynamic. As for showing numerical values on the trend, I don't see any options for that aside from the separate scales. There's a field called "Show Values" but I have that turned on. I think that only causes the values of the tags in the log to be displayed below reflecting current value or values at the cursor point.

I finally got a response from Red Lion tech support and they confirmed that there is no native scaling built into the trend primitive. Definitely something they need to put on the wish list.

rta53 said:

Looks nice Okie. I'm still waiting for Red Lion tech support to respond to how the Y axis is supposed to be displayed natively without the need for adding the vertical scale. My guess is that if this was possible you would have done it this way already.

Click to expand...

I'm not sure who you talked to here but I think there was some miscommunication. When you set the min and max in the format of the tag that is used to scale the Y axis of the trend viewer. However the scale is not displayed on the trend viewer. The only way to show a scale would be to use the vertical scale primitive.

Thanks
Jeremy

You're probably correct about the miscommunication. Maybe I wasn't being clear when I asked my question. I'm still learning the software and I'm a little slow sometimes. However, it would be nice to see the trend viewer upgraded to include the scale.