Motor Hertz

Nick.Ferguson

Member
Join Date
Sep 2011
Location
Nebraska
Posts
24
I have heard several different opinions on this subject, but I would like to hear your thoughts. When running a 3 phase, under 10 hp standard motor with a VFD what would be a safe Hertz range? I know that I can look up the manufacturer spec, but I would like to find a general rule of thumb. Thank you all for your help
 
have a look at the white paper at the WEG motor site.
the higher the Frequency the higher the applied voltage to the motor windings. as the insulation will fail, usually above 600v. there is a problem that needs to be properly investigated.
Check all motor specifications.
 
Since you are in North America, I will confine my answer to NEMA motors.

In the HP range you specify, all of the motors will have cast aluminum rotors. Most will have plastic shaft-driven fans if TEFC. ODP motors will have the fan blades cast into the rotor.

Given the above, on 4, 6, and 8 pole motors, you can, without question, take these motors to 90hz. That would be 150% of nameplate speed. On two pole motors, you can go to 75hz without question and to 90hz if you replace the plastic fan with a metal substitute.

The above guidelines apply to ordinary, commodity grade, high and premium efficiency motors. They do not have to be inverter duty.

For the record, I am simply repeating what many motor manufacturers' sales catalogs have shown for many years.

Now, what happens when you take a motor over its base speed? You cannot, as mentioned above, continue to raise the voltage over the nameplate value. So, above the base frequency of 60hz, the V/hz ratio begins to go down due to the increasing hz but constant voltage. Below 60hz, the ratio had been held constant.

The V/hz ratio determines the motor's current demand under various load conditions which then determines the motor's ability to make torque. By holding the V/hz ratio constant from zero to 60hz, you basically make the motor's torque output potential constant. Above 60hz, since the ratio is going down, the motor's torque output is also going down. In fact, the torque is going down at the inverse of the overspeed ratio so, for example, at 3/2 speed the torque is at 2/3. At 11/10 overspeed (10%) the torque is down to 10/11. Since hp is torque x speed/5250, that makes the hp constant over the overspeed range.

Going beyond 90hz on non-inverter duty rated motors generally doesn't work good because the torque starts to fall off faster than the speed increase so the hp drifts downward. This is due to limits in the coils and magnetics. In inverter-duty motors, the design is sometimes modified so this limit can be moved up to 120hz but, in those cases, the motor nameplate will list performance data for 60 and 120hz.

The potential uses for overspeed are mainly in industrial machines. It is uncommon to find a beneficial use for overspeed in fans and pumps. In industrial machines, it is my practice to design the motor and power train so, at maximum machine speed, the motor is between 75 and 90hz. Many benefits result such as better motor cooling at all speeds, higher starting torque, and reduced speed error in open-loop applications. The only disadvantages I know of are an increase in motor audible noise at the higher speeds and a slight reduction in efficiency due to the fan turning faster.

I routinely use overspeed and have for many years. I have not found any significant reasons not to and it often results in being able to use a TEFC or TENV instead of an auxiliary-cooled TEBC motor as well as a smaller rated VFD.
 
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I have used overspeed on blowers and pumps. In many of my applications the design point is determined by the expected worst case operating conditions. These only occur a few hours a year, if then. By using overspeed on a centrifugal device I can meet the design pressure and/or flow conditions if needed without supplying oversized equipment or compromising efficiency for the 99% of operation below the design conditions.

On the bottom end of the range at 6-10 Hz you often get "cogging" or significant audible noise. (Cogging is a visibly jerky operation of the motor instead of smooth rotation.)
 
I didn't see anything relevant on pg 17 but look at the graph on page 28. It shows operation of the motor and decreasing available torque up to approximately 50% overspeed for both 4 and 2 pole motors.
 
Tom Jenkins mentions the only use of overspeed I know of on centrifugal loads where the extra speed is used to bring the load hp all the way up to the available motor hp thus maximizing the output of the system. Since the centrifugal loads follow a torque-squared curve, you don't usually have to go very far before you run out of torque. But that may be, as Tom mentions, just enough to avoid going to the next larger size of equipment.
 
As usual, Dick, you nailed it. My overspeed is normally limited to 5-10 Hz with a nominal rating of 60Hz. With careful selection of the motor and drive you can avoid running out of torque above nominal speed. Another trick is to pick a unit with the max design point to the right of the best efficiency point (BEP) so that as you modulate you pass through and stay close to the BEP, thereby minimizing power at normal operation.
 
Most will have plastic shaft-driven fans if TEFC. ODP motors will have the fan blades cast into the rotor....

....On two pole motors, you can go to 75hz without question and to 90hz if you replace the plastic fan with a metal substitute.

Always willing to learn something new.... please elaborate on why metal fans are better than plastic in the case you quote.
 
Uhh they dont come apart at high RPM?

Fans blade pressure thus force on blades higher at higher RPM results in more flexing of blades and or stripping out the keyway on fan hub.

Dan Bentler
 

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