What do you consider complete?

We build a lot of machines in house. From scratch as well as complete retrofits. I have to do the drawings, the programs, usually wire them and commission to.
We do also buy a lot of new machines. I'm almost to the point where I don't want to work on somebody else machines any more. I know mine are likely far from perfect, but I do include the necessary breadcrumbs to hopefully make it easy for the guy after me. I'm so tired of not complete machines rolling in here. From many OEM. Perhaps I expect to much in my position, maybe. Furthermore, the machines we buy cost a lot. Like A lot a lot. I don't think its asking to much.

A few points Iv put together for the managers when purchasing equipment that need to be demanded from the OEM. To me, this is the fundamental stuff. Most of this is what I notice in the first minute of opening a cabinet!


-Request Rockwell on any possible Automation devices. This includes PLCÂ’s, HMI, VFD, Servo, Safety relays and safety PLC systems included.
(Factory Specific)

- Final delivery of the machine must show clear Status indicators on the processors. This means in specific, the FORCE light must be off, no forces in the processor. Also, the I/O Light must not be on or flashing as all I/O connections in the processor should be used. These two points may be in existence in the situation where work is not to completion on a system and is intended to continue at a date in the foreseeable future but never intended to be permanent.

-Processors, HMIs, VFD, NAT or any Ethernet Translation devices, Managed switches or any other device within the machine should be clearly marked, device and drawing to include and to illustrate the Firmware Revisions, Ethernet Address(I.P. Gateway, Subnet) if applicable, Node address if applicable. Further to this. All of the above must also be clearly marked, device and drawing to include any and all user names and passwords. Including the WebBrowsers, PanelView Desktop access passwords and challenge question responses.

-HMI station or any device with the capability to store more than one project or runtime file must only have 1. No unused files on any devices without further consultation with the customer as to why it exists. Likewise. No unused shortcuts in PanelView Applications.

-Backup files. A thumb drive within the cabinet upon delivery that includes the passwords and machine drawings. Includes all PLC and HMI files as well as configuration files for any NAT, ENA or Managed Switches installed pre-customer.

-Cabinet CertificationÂ…CSA, UL or equivalent. (((This will cost us more. It is the only thing on this list that isnÂ’t likely to affect us negatively without. All panels we build in house are certified, itÂ’s a show of quality and completion, usually. I would expect such from an OEM. However, most of them are not currently doing this without being required by the customer.)))



Hypothetically speaking. If you were to purchase a machine, or 2 at a time from an OEM for 175K$ per unit, wouldn't you expect all things on this list to be done? I'm seeing these machines roll in with and violating every point on this list! Again, I'm no Elon here, but my retrofitted machines with new cabinets and documentation make these expensive units look like poorly done high school science fair projects. What gives?

Management never knows the difference though. Machine looks beautiful on the outside. Works just fine, for now. These things just make troubleshooting take longer and screw up the maintenance tech before he even gets started. Then you need the magician to figure out that somebody accidentally loaded an unused PV file that nobody knows existed, just as an example of the trouble that it could cause.

I think it made the last OEM guy that was here a little bothered that I picked the panel apart on his machine while he was still standing there in front of his customer, my manager. But he needs to know that not everybody thinks his work is awesome when it clearly is lacking all of the important bits. Tidy panel layout, sure, but why not house clean when your done. I/O light flashing.... Really, your not done.

I'm perhaps only a bit sour because Ill have to deal with it for the next 20 years. Job security yes, but I already have a ton of work to do and not enough time to do it. He asked me what I thought and I told him. Now I want to see this stuff on all future machines.

Thoughts...

I work for an OEM, there are a lot of links in the chain. If it were our equipment, the guy that would have been in front of you taking the flack would have been 5 degrees of separation from the product that was ultimately delivered to you.

One big problem that we run into is no matter what happens between the day the PO is cut and the ship date, the ship date never changes. Sometimes the guy responsible to ticking all those boxes just gets screwed in the process because he is the last one to get his time. The life of a controls guy.

Edit: yes, you should expect everything you and the OEM agreed to, which is written in the specification, to be completed upon delivery.

I don't think that I will live long enough to have all of those points ticked off properly on a single project.

It's a nice goal. But none of our suppliers, or OEMs, are interested in doing that. The sales guys promise it, but the timeline is never long enough to get it all done. The scope changes normally dictate that it barely works when it arrives. The only doc you get is what you write down while the service tech is commissioning it. The panel drawings shipped show what was in the original spec ... or maybe most of it.

I don't think you are asking for too much.

I worked for three different OEMs over the course of my career. At the end of every startup there was always a formal transfer of ownership from the OEM to the customer. Leading up to that transfer was a period of time where OEM's installation team was still in control but worked in partnership with the customer's production team to put the machine through its paces and demonstrate the ability to perform as specified by the purchase agreement. During that time there was always a punch list of items that had to be completed before acceptance that might or might not have been called out in the specs. The morning meeting every day was review of which items had been checked off the punch list from the previous day, progress on the remaining items, and discussion of whether or not any new items were to be added.
And we always maintained two sets of marked-up electrical schematics. One set stayed with the machine when we left and the other came home with us so we could create the "as installed" schematic and send the final copies to the customer.
My experience may differ from that of people who worked for different OEMs since the machines I worked on were always unique. They were a "standard" product line, but no two were ever identical. And installation times were measured in weeks or months, rather than hours or days.

PLC Pie Guy said:

- Final delivery of the machine must show clear Status indicators on the processors. This means in specific, the FORCE light must be off, no forces in the processor. Also, the I/O Light must not be on or flashing as all I/O connections in the processor should be used. These two points may be in existence in the situation where work is not to completion on a system and is intended to continue at a date in the foreseeable future but never intended to be permanent.

Click to expand...

I usually include these as the first step of the commissioning stage. No faults or alarms must be present before starting the process. Likewise, as many bits of commissioning include inducing faults, the passing requirement is to put everything back once the falt has been cleared.

PLC Pie Guy said:

-Processors, HMIs, VFD, NAT or any Ethernet Translation devices, Managed switches or any other device within the machine should be clearly marked, device and drawing to include and to illustrate the Firmware Revisions, Ethernet Address(I.P. Gateway, Subnet) if applicable, Node address if applicable. Further to this. All of the above must also be clearly marked, device and drawing to include any and all user names and passwords. Including the WebBrowsers, PanelView Desktop access passwords and challenge question responses.

Click to expand...

This password requirement simply wouldn't fly in many companies. Passwords are either linked to an operator group and then each user has its own (sometimes overkill), or the administrator passwords are changed on the day of the installation to something that the OEM will not know.
At times we allow the OEM to have an account depending on the system in question, but we're the only ones with the administrator password (the OEM account is also usually locked and must be enabled as required).
The administrator passwords are kept in a firesafe inside an envelope and in something like SafePass or LastPass. There are always two administrators.

PLC Pie Guy said:

-Backup files. A thumb drive within the cabinet upon delivery that includes the passwords and machine drawings. Includes all PLC and HMI files as well as configuration files for any NAT, ENA or Managed Switches installed pre-customer.

Click to expand...

Maybe it's the projects I'm involved in, but when the machine makes it to the plant, I already have the drawings as I approved them. What I always do is retain the final 10% for the very latest documentation including any redlines done during commissioning.
Likewise, a big chunk of the contract is tied to a successful commissioning with no outstanding punch items (see my first comment)

dmroeder said:

one big problem that we run into is no matter what happens between the day the po is cut and the ship date, the ship date never changes. Sometimes the guy responsible to ticking all those boxes just gets screwed in the process because he is the last one to get his time. The life of a controls guy.

Click to expand...

+1

Steve Bailey said:

I worked for three different OEMs over the course of my career.



<snip>



the machines I worked on were always unique. They were a "standard" product line, but no two were ever identical. And installation times were measured in weeks or months, rather than hours or days.

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Sounds just like my job Steve. I like it as there is something special about almost every project I get to work on.

It really sounds like your procurement department is just buying of the specs of the OEM, that is never good.
You will get a pig in a poke.



As a client/customer you need a specification for the machine - like the stuff you point out.
These points should then be in the contract for the purchase and if the delivery is not complete the OEM needs to either "make good", ie fix the issue, or there would be a reduction in price.


And always, ALWAYS, demand certifications for the equipment. No serious OEM will fight you on that.




(I previously worked for a (very) large global OEM that all of you will certainly recognize the name of)

I think all the things on your list need to be put up front to include with the spec between OEM and customer. Otherwise it ends up as a wish list and not a punch list at end of project at turnover.

Do you have any luck when asking for Allen Bradley control system? I mean if the company you buy from has a developed say Siemens control system, I'm sure they will add a big price tag to converting it. When we are asked to deliver end user specific brands for PLC/HMI we decline or name a price. It always ends up with " naaah ok, we take what you have"

PLC Pie Guy said:

-Request Rockwell on any possible Automation devices. This includes PLC’s, HMI, VFD, Servo, Safety relays and safety PLC systems included.
(Factory Specific)

Click to expand...

You are what is wrong with the state of Control Engineering in North America.....







Also have you ever worked for an OEM? I'll ask that question before I start my rant

ojz0r said:

It really sounds like your procurement department is just buying of the specs of the OEM, that is never good.
You will get a pig in a poke.

Click to expand...

The purchasing dept. Our mangers..... Simply buy. Then come and say, here is what is coming, be ready.
Iv asked many times to be involved in picking out new equipment. We have a few facilities. One is really good at this, one is really, really poor. They don't even normally consider the voltage we have onsite before simply deciding to buy something. I'm just the victim here.

It's a lovely goal. But none of our producers, or OEMs, are interested in this. The sales guys promise it, but to get it all completed, the timetable is never long enough. The scope shifts usually determine that when it arrives, it hardly works.

theColonel26 said:

You are what is wrong with the state of Control Engineering in North America.....

Also have you ever worked for an OEM? I'll ask that question before I start my rant

Click to expand...

Sorry, I haven't worked for any OEM. Iv had lots of them here on site though. Some are great, some are very lousy and seem merely like bodies sent here to be a company face. Iv been in maintenance and improvement for the duration of my career. Also, I do not have an issue with other control systems. Iv been into many different systems of all brands. However, I'm the one and only tech here. My experience is AB. Iv studied AB. When a machine is down at 3:00AM, I don't want to have to learn something else when we had the option to use equipment I know and equipment I have built a network for, have spare parts for, software and service contracts for. Not to mention the Rockwell distributor in our Industrial Park about 2 blocks away. I'm not knocking any other brands, simply stating that I prefer to order equipment that uses AB. That is what the little "Factory Specific" was on my list under that point. I know factories that run Omron, nothing else...... Not that they hate AB, its just what they have studied, carry parts for and have the means to work on efficiently.


Ill continue with my day now. I have a couple programs and drawings to work on for a 2 lines we are currently building. I have to finish up so I don't have I/O lights flashing upon completion. While I'm doing this I will be wondering though. Exactly why I'm "Whats wrong with the state of control engineering in North America". I thought I was doing just fine being gainfully employed studying AB control systems for the last 20 years myself........

Unfortunately no matter what specs I try to include upper management goes by the 2 light rule. As soon as they see 2 lights anywhere on the machine lit up they think it's ready for production. I haven't done a true run off and evaluation in 10 years.