Questions to ask when choosing an MES?

Hi,

my company is looking to implement an MES and I'm trying to figure out which is the best. Do any of you MES guys know which questions we should definitely be asking when choosing one?

Also, which MES would you choose and why?

Thanks.

Russ

Following with interest !

I was involved (partly) in just such a project, however the company already had a system called BPCS at a high level and a number of other SCADA/BMS systems and all were rather old. You need to find out if the company already has some forms of management/data acquisition systems in place as there is a danger that linking them can be problematic. Our BPCS system looked like an old Unix based system running on a windows platform (sorry was never a party to this system typical IT Dept. did not want engineering to be too involved). You need to gather information what if any exists and then decisions on what the company expect. This will give you a list of questions to ask a supplier. From my experience a supplier will try to sell you a rather expensive system that you find will not integrate well with existing systems. It depends on what you want to achieve how much it will cost. Scalability is also an important factor, you may want to start in a small way and expand the system as time goes on. For example you could go all out and get a system that will cater for all the functions you require or implement solutions individually and integrate them. Many MES systems have gradually added functionality to incorporate most or all of the functions required by all departments i.e. Management, Production, Accounting and maintenance.
You have an uphill battle, trust me all departments will not like you interfering or getting to know what they do.
Generate a user requirement spec with all parties involved, then if possible work with any prospective suppliers to create a function design spec and slog this out until all parties are on board.

parky said:

or implement solutions individually and integrate them.

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As someone that decommissioned such a system last year because it never worked, don't go down this route. Get something off the shelf instead or with some (not full) flexibility of configuration.

Perhaps I did not word it quite correctly, I meant get a solution that caters for all the functions required and implement them in stages especially if initial costs are a consideration , most MES/Scada/BMS solutions have scalable systems where you can upgrade as and when required (although this may be more expensive in the long run). However, I do agree with the previous post and if possible allow for everything at the start.
Another note is that some of your plant might not connect to a management system or you cannot get access to OEM code so the best answer maybe allow for data concentrator PLC's where I/O can be wired to extra sensors or paralleled up on existing plant to give you discrete data i.e. pack counts, machine running signals etc. these signals can then be processed in the Data concentrator and sent to the MES.

I've been involved with MES projects over the past two years now. From an integrator perspective, the challenge is figuring out what MES means to the client, and what they actually want it to do for them. Is it just OEE? Traceabilty? ERP Integration? Production Scheduling? All of that but "not really"?

Once you establish the goals, the next biggest challenge is getting all the client stakeholders involved and on the same page. Every company does things differently and every department within a company has their own take. If the client doesn't know how their operations and equipment really work, you don't have a chance.

MES projects need a client team and a strong project manager with authority to move help things forward. Unlike PLC and SCADA programming where an integrator's experience can fill knowledge gaps, that isn't necessarily true for MES projects because of the variation in operations and definitions from company to company. The knowledge required for MES projects is often spread out across the departments and some of it embedded in operators day-to-day functions.

The nice thing about MES projects from an integrator standpoint is that the foundations of it are applicable across all industries. We are able to cross industry boundaries that you can't always do from an PLC/SCADA standpoint.

Best advice is to work with an integrator with MES experience to get you moving. Most MES inquires we receive are asking for an Ignition/Sepasoft solution.

parky said:

Generate a user requirement spec with all parties involved, then if possible work with any prospective suppliers to create a function design spec and slog this out until all parties are on board.

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Hi, this is something I want to see. I would expect the system integrator to create one though.

Thanks for your reply.

parky said:

I was involved (partly) Scalability is also an important factor, you may want to start in a small way and expand the system as time goes on. .

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This is important to me, as it could really hold back the company in the long run and mean a complete change of MES system if it doesn't scale. That would mean a big failure in choosing the correct platform at the beginning. Can you suggest a good scalable platform and one that isn't and why?

Paully's5.0 said:

I've been involved with MES projects over the past two years now. From an integrator perspective, the challenge is figuring out what MES means to the client, and what they actually want it to do for them. Is it just OEE? Traceabilty? ERP Integration? Production Scheduling? All of that but "not really"?

Once you establish the goals, the next biggest challenge is getting all the client stakeholders involved and on the same page. Every company does things differently and every department within a company has their own take. If the client doesn't know how their operations and equipment really work, you don't have a chance.

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Yes, that was a challenge for me when I started the company. MES to me is just the OEE, traceability, production scheduling, etc, but the list of things they are talking about like condition monitoring, vibration analysis, etc is more typical of a SCADA system. So to me an MES system is just some basic functions within a SCADA system, so you might as well get a good SCADA system with MES modules, and purchase development access to customize the system to what you want, which may change overtime.

I like the idea of choosing a platform that is open and adaptable for inhouse development, probably after an OEM company has set up the platform and got all the functions working how we specified.

I agree that the goals should be established as best as can be at the beginning.

Paully's5.0 said:

Most MES inquires we receive are asking for an Ignition/Sepasoft solution.

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I've been looking into Ignition and Sepasoft. What is your opinion on the platform? Does it scale well? Are customers happy with it?

Thanks for your replies.

russg said:

Hi, this is something I want to see. I would expect the system integrator to create one though.

Thanks for your reply.

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You should really write a specification or employers requirements first for this sort of document to be created by the integrator, they need a starting point.

tragically1969 said:

You should really write a specification or employers requirements first for this sort of document to be created by the integrator, they need a starting point.

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Yes I agree. We already have a URS (user requirement specification) that's been prepared by my company. I think it could be taken further and more detail on our side, but I would like to see some kind of FDS from the OEM once they have been given the job. I know this because I have worked for OEM companies and created FDS documents before. They are extremely useful to help with further development and support, as well as making sure the OEM fully understands what the end user requires.

russg said:

I've been looking into Ignition and Sepasoft. What is your opinion on the platform? Does it scale well? Are customers happy with it?

Thanks for your replies.

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I'm a huge proponent of the Ignition platform. Sepasoft is doing some great things and I think the product is starting to really mature. The OEE 2.0 release has been a great change for end users, but it's also had some struggles. Sepasoft modules have a steep learning curve, and much of it is powered by scripting which there are many many many functions to learn.

There are some things you simply do in Ignition, like database queries that are considered bad practice in Sepasoft. Sepasoft whats you to get any and all data through the script engine and analysis tools as it's more efficient to go through their query engine then direct. This can lead to bad habits for those who just try and dive into Sepasoft and leverage methods they use with base Ignition.

Sepaoft's alignment with ISA-95 is a great thing, but again more to learn.

Right now with the release of Ignition 8, Sepasoft is playing catch up to be compatible. I believe they have a release candidate for Ignition 8 but I don't think it will be Perspective ready until the end of the year. The next major release of Sepasoft modules will also change some back end stuff which will be interesting, but long-term is probably the right change to make.

Everything is extremely scalable customers are happy with it ONLY if it's done right. I've had to fix a number of Ignition/Sepasoft projects done by other integrators and end users because of various issues and such. We are also ripping and replacing a number of Ignition/Sepasoft projects done by others because they failed to achieve the customer's requirements.

Any MES project, regardless of the platform, people need to know how to use it and implement it to get the results. The bulk of problems I have seen with Ignition/Sepasoft have more to do with the application build rather than the platform. BUT, we have found issues with Sepasoft and they are pretty responsive about releasing service packs to fix them.

I am certified in both Ignition and Sepasoft, PM me if you would be interested having a more formal conversation.

I know l'm being naughty again, but apart from Ken Roach and not forgotten Lance1 (and other's that don't gain from a premise here), l imagine the reason some very knowledgeable people on this site give there hard earned wisdom for free is that the get it back in other way's. Of course l was born cynical.

duckman said:

l imagine the reason some very knowledgeable people on this site give there hard earned wisdom for free is that the get it back in other way's. Of course l was born cynical.

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This adds zero value to this thread. If you have an issue man up and call it out, don't hide behind sarcasm and flawed character traits.