You are not registered yet. Please click here to register!


 
 
plc storereviewsdownloads
This board is for PLC Related Q&A ONLY. Please DON'T use it for advertising, etc.
 
Try our online PLC Simulator- FREE.  Click here now to try it.

---------->>>>>Get FREE PLC Programming Tips

New Here? Please read this important info!!!


Go Back   PLCS.net - Interactive Q & A > PLCS.net - Interactive Q & A > LIVE PLC Questions And Answers

PLC training tools sale

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old November 21st, 2017, 11:05 AM   #1
Iner
Member
France

Iner is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: France
Posts: 110
Do you also do robotics ?

Hello,

I joined a new company last year and what I noticed is that they are training automation people to do robotics.

I just completed my first project with two robots, also doing the automation and the safety. My opinion is that it is a lot more work, between programming the robots, optimizing the moves, doing all the simulation and checking the obstacles while also doing all of the automation...

From the company POV the advantage is obvious, give the same person more hours to do the job instead of allocating another person to do half of the job. The advantage is also that the programs are concepted by the same person and works together well.

However, robots specialists can optimize better and have a broader knowlegde and experience.

Is it a tend to train people in both fields? Does it exist also in your companies? What approach would you favour? Always use robots specialists or only for the harder/more complex process applications?
  Reply With Quote
Old November 21st, 2017, 12:37 PM   #2
James Mcquade
Member
United States

James Mcquade is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 2,204
yes, robotic specialists are faster.

BUT, when the robot that was programmed by the specialist breaks down, how will you debug his code, or even understand what he did and why? call him at 2 am and ask him to hop on a plane that is an 8 hour flight, fix the issue, and return home (for example). in the meantime, your production is zero and the company is loosing money.

doing both jobs does take longer, the more you do with robotics, the faster you get.

You can then train others in the plant on what you did and why.
that way everyone knows your programming methods and how to trouble shoot the problem. less downtime, fewer calls at 2 am for help, less stress.

I am stating this based on past history.

james
  Reply With Quote
Old November 21st, 2017, 12:45 PM   #3
Steve Etter
Lifetime Supporting Member + Moderator
United States

Steve Etter is offline
 
Steve Etter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Morristown, TN
Posts: 919
Where I work, we are the end-users and we do pretty much all of our automation and robotics in-house.

That said, I do the PLC/HMI/Safety and integration development while another Engineer does the robotics development. Like you suggest, it's a little too much for only one person to do both, do them well, and then act as support from that point on.

The real issue I see is in how thoroughly a system is developed. If your company wants simple, basic systems that have little flexibility, one person can do it all. If, on the other hand, a deeper, flexible system can require two or more folks to do the job in a timely manner.
  Reply With Quote
Old November 21st, 2017, 05:13 PM   #4
jstolaruk
Member
United States

jstolaruk is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Detroit, SE Michigan
Posts: 3,240
As a self employed integrator, I added robot programming to my skill list about ten years ago and it has help land some work that I normally wouldn't have access to. On small jobs, it saves the machine builder some money because he can use one guy to do both. Cheaper to send one guy when installing too.

I use the robot as a glorified servo; make a move and wait for the PLC to instruct to make another move. Lot easier making the decisions in ladder then in robot code.
__________________
"You can live to be a hundred if you give up all the things that make you want to live to be a hundred." Woody Allen
  Reply With Quote
Old November 21st, 2017, 06:22 PM   #5
Peter Nachtwey
Member
United States

Peter Nachtwey is offline
 
Peter Nachtwey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Vancouver, WA, US
Posts: 6,718
Does anybody actually do the trig, vector rotations and inverse kinematics?
__________________
"Living is easy with eyes closed, misunderstanding all you see...." Strawberry Fields Forever, John Lennon
  Reply With Quote
Old November 21st, 2017, 09:22 PM   #6
bill4807
Member
United States

bill4807 is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: michigan
Posts: 96
It is a lot of work I agree, since I do the same for a machine builder/integrator.
This is what I love about it though, getting my hands on all aspects of the project. In my case most are machine tending or assembly machines not the most complicated applications, but yes, sometimes I do call in the robot manufacture for a few days when I know I need to.

They are good and fast of course but just make sure you understand how they are doing things because ultimately you are left to make it all operate properly.

I agree as others have said keep the robot simple. In some cases you can't but either way it doesn't bother me the robot program is one big macro program anyways in my world.
  Reply With Quote
Old November 22nd, 2017, 03:15 AM   #7
Bratt
Lifetime Supporting Member
Sweden

Bratt is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: West Sweden
Posts: 670
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Nachtwey View Post
Does anybody actually do the trig, vector rotations and inverse kinematics?
Sometimes they do but usually no. A lot of the calculations are built in the modern robot controllers as functions and you don't have to know what is happening behind the scenes. But still if you have external data from many sources complex calculations is sometimes needed.

Our company also have specialist robot programmers. For the more complicated projects i would say that that is a must. You cannot gain the knowledge needed for complex projects if you have to to everything. For smaller projects and less demanding customers I know that there are companies that use one person for all programming (Servos,Vision,PLC,Robots etc) but they are more generalist than specialist and they cannot handle more complex tasks without help.
  Reply With Quote
Old November 22nd, 2017, 03:19 PM   #8
Iner
Member
France

Iner is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: France
Posts: 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bratt View Post
Sometimes they do but usually no. A lot of the calculations are built in the modern robot controllers as functions and you don't have to know what is happening behind the scenes. But still if you have external data from many sources complex calculations is sometimes needed.

Our company also have specialist robot programmers. For the more complicated projects i would say that that is a must. You cannot gain the knowledge needed for complex projects if you have to to everything. For smaller projects and less demanding customers I know that there are companies that use one person for all programming (Servos,Vision,PLC,Robots etc) but they are more generalist than specialist and they cannot handle more complex tasks without help.
Yes, I think that help is needed for more advanced features and more complex applications. Vision integrated with robots, several tracking of parts with advanced control of speed...

The question is: should a company develop its specialists in order to develop in-house the maximum of its abilities or train its employee to do the job for a particular project and get the help of the robot maker for the advanced feature if available.

Having one/several person for the PLC, then for the robots, then for the visions, then for the motion controls on the same project/machine seem like luxury financially speaking, but technically the optimization will be obviously better.
  Reply With Quote
Old November 22nd, 2017, 04:35 PM   #9
Toine
Member
Netherlands

Toine is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: NL
Posts: 192
I work with a small company, we all do multiple things. While my main focus is PLC and other software programming, I also do some electrical work, testing, pre sales and after sales support. I'd like to learn robot programming myself but don't expect to have time for this in the near future. So far we have hired external experts for the few cases where we have included robots in client projects.
  Reply With Quote
Old November 23rd, 2017, 07:46 AM   #10
jstolaruk
Member
United States

jstolaruk is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Detroit, SE Michigan
Posts: 3,240
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iner View Post
Yes, I think that help is needed for more advanced features and more complex applications. Vision integrated with robots, several tracking of parts with advanced control of speed...

The question is: should a company develop its specialists in order to develop in-house the maximum of its abilities or train its employee to do the job for a particular project and get the help of the robot maker for the advanced feature if available.

Having one/several person for the PLC, then for the robots, then for the visions, then for the motion controls on the same project/machine seem like luxury financially speaking, but technically the optimization will be obviously better.
Its an opportunity to train the employee and not have to be reliant on someone outside the company. Saves money in the long run and that employee now has exposure to something new that will adds to his/her personal skill list. I can't thing of an instance where this was the wrong approach.
__________________
"You can live to be a hundred if you give up all the things that make you want to live to be a hundred." Woody Allen
  Reply With Quote
Old November 23rd, 2017, 09:21 AM   #11
boneless
Lifetime Supporting Member + Moderator
United States

boneless is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: OKC
Posts: 1,459
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Nachtwey View Post
Does anybody actually do the trig, vector rotations and inverse kinematics?
I did a course last year and it was very interesting, never imagined this much work went into this. Safe to say that the course was only one semester, so we just scratched the surface, never actually touched a robot. And by now everything is forgotten.

They do have a robotics course at the local vo-tech, which I am contemplating on taking.
  Reply With Quote
Old November 23rd, 2017, 11:57 AM   #12
Peter Nachtwey
Member
United States

Peter Nachtwey is offline
 
Peter Nachtwey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Vancouver, WA, US
Posts: 6,718
I learned on my own. I wrote a 6DOF/Stewart Platform program for our controller.
Jacobians aren't needed for a Stewart Platform.

A robot with an upper and lower arm is easy. There is a perfect formula for that.

Scara robots are much more difficult but they are well documented and common.
This is a good place to start getting in to the nitty gritty with Jacobians.
Get some software like Mathematica or Maple to help with the math.

I haven't tried a delta robot yet. These are use for small pick and place. They are usually extremely fast but moving small parts where hydraulics aren't needed.
__________________
"Living is easy with eyes closed, misunderstanding all you see...." Strawberry Fields Forever, John Lennon
  Reply With Quote
Old November 23rd, 2017, 12:37 PM   #13
VAN
Member
United States

VAN is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Wa
Posts: 213
Quote:
Originally Posted by jstolaruk View Post
Its an opportunity to train the employee and not have to be reliant on someone outside the company. Saves money in the long run and that employee now has exposure to something new that will adds to his/her personal skill list. I can't thing of an instance where this was the wrong approach.
I think the problem comes when you have this extra skill set but no increase in wage.
  Reply With Quote
Old November 23rd, 2017, 01:29 PM   #14
jstolaruk
Member
United States

jstolaruk is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Detroit, SE Michigan
Posts: 3,240
Quote:
Originally Posted by VAN View Post
I think the problem comes when you have this extra skill set but no increase in wage.
Different topic. Whenever training was offered to me I jumped at it, that knowledge can't be taken away and can be leverage for wage negotiations.
__________________
"You can live to be a hundred if you give up all the things that make you want to live to be a hundred." Woody Allen
  Reply With Quote
Old November 23rd, 2017, 05:36 PM   #15
VAN
Member
United States

VAN is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Wa
Posts: 213
Quote:
Originally Posted by jstolaruk View Post
Different topic. Whenever training was offered to me I jumped at it, that knowledge can't be taken away and can be leverage for wage negotiations.
Fair point, but how I interpreted the OP is they are now responsible for the extra task. I'll also assume management would expect installs to take the same amount of time as they did in the past. When it comes to HMI work or most work it isn't that its overtly hard it's time consuming.
  Reply With Quote
Reply
Jump to Live PLC Question and Answer Forum

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Topics
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
slc5/03 to plc5 message transmission using robotics modems and pstn line donaldk87 LIVE PLC Questions And Answers 1 May 26th, 2010 08:52 AM
Functional Robotics TimothyMoulder LIVE PLC Questions And Answers 1 December 13th, 2007 08:19 AM
us robotics AT commands tguz LIVE PLC Questions And Answers 4 October 8th, 2005 11:29 AM
Ichikoh/Insol robotics rbbalaji LIVE PLC Questions And Answers 3 January 4th, 2003 08:33 PM
Robotics rbbalaji LIVE PLC Questions And Answers 11 December 28th, 2002 12:01 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:17 PM.


.