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Old October 18th, 2004, 09:39 AM   #1
panic mode
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Rockwell Software again...

Hi everyone,


Just wanted to share another experience because someone
else might be in the same position. I have to work with
few different automation brands such as AB and Mitsubishi.
This means I have installed on my machine RSLogix5000
and GT Designer2 among other software packages.
I just installed two large machines for Honda so I was
back in office doing paperwork.

On friday boss asked me to start one (other) machine so
customer could see it run before it was shipped and installed.
This job done by other guy so all I needed is to start it
and run few cycles while customer was there and he was
supposed to come back and support it on site.
Ok no problem, except that machien stops after few seconds
so I needed to take a look in program to see what is it
waiting for. Ok, have to install newer version of RSLogix5000.
Done, check the program found problem, everythign works.

At the end of the day I'm told that we are adding something
small to the two machies I worked on so I should go with our
guys and make minor change in program (one rung and change
comment for one spare buttoon on HMI). Ok, no problem...

Well there WAS a problem. I made change to PLC program in
no time so I started GT Works2 to fix the HMI screen.
It starts as usual and then RSLogix5000 splash screen shows up.
Five seconds later everything is gone. I tried few more times
and same story.

So I started thinking back what the hell happened because
two days ago everythign was fine and all I did in the mean
time was edit some DWGs and DOCs...and installed RSLinx2.42
and RSLogix5000...

Ok, go back to office remove GTWorks and install it. Nope...
Still the same.

Well, it wasn't too bad, machine still works although one rarely
used button is only labeled L18 and description is still "Spare".
But it's not ok that everytime you install new piece of software
something else doesn't work.

This .NET and shared resources and all DLL ballony is really driving me nuts. Why in the world is big deal to make one application
and put all it needs in it's own directory? Why shared
dependencies? Save HDD space? Where does the saving go?
Every time you install something it's in the order of 100Mb anyways.
It's th
I hate freaking "integration". And RS is so good in screwing
things up (sorry Ken, nothing personal but RS sucks lately...).
I had to fight with freaking:
RSViewSE/ME (killed RSLinx, RSLogix5000)
RSNetWorks (killed RSLinx, Omron PLC and NS software)
RSLinx (killed RSLinxEnterprise and vice versa, refused to load
on machine without IE, MSN messenger and whatever other security holes and trojans are out there)...

And now installation of RSLogix5000 v13 killed the Mitsubishi software. (oh dear...)

I used to be so happy with RS not too long ago. Why is everything going down hill? I was trying to run multiboot and have separate
Windows for each brand but it didn't help (RS Linx again).
What else can I do? Carry one laptop for RSView, one for all RSNetworks, one for all other RS software and one for all other brands (Omron, Mitsubishi...)? Maybe instead of laptop I have to
use rack based system. Just tip it to horizontal, add engine,
wheels, seat and desk and you have the ultimate programmers toy?
This is insane... Hello RS, what's up? I remember recent post
bt Ken Roach and his grin that sales ware great but how about
happy customers? Do you still have them?
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Old October 18th, 2004, 12:22 PM   #2
akreel
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Re: Rockwell Software again...

Quote:
Originally posted by panic mode
This .NET and shared resources and all DLL ballony is really driving me nuts.
I'm not a Rockwell Software employee, nor am I a software engineer. But I do know my way around a PC, and I've seen how your "typical" programmer operates. I'll tell you what I THINK is going on, but it's based only on my experience with the end product and a few rumors I've heard along the way.

1. Much of the Rockwell software contains quick-fixes and work-arounds for some ancient problems. I think these pieces of code are feeling their age as Windows evolves.

2. Rockwell has a NASTY habit of taking an accepted standard and *******izing it. Then they slap an "RS" in front of the name and make you think you're buying quality stuff that can't be done anywhere else. I'm sure this most often happens because some programmer found "an exception to the rule" and decided to abandon the standard rather than force his code to adapt.
If you've ever used OPC with ControlLogix and RSView, you'll begin to understand what I'm talking about. Somewhere between the RSView, RSLinx, and the PLC, TRUE OPC is not being used. Topics tend to "hang" in the system. You have to reboot in order to reset things sometimes. If this were true OPC, changing the topic would change the data path without any confusion.

3. Microsoft's security patches are a curse. Rockwell is trying to open up their software, while Microsoft is putting band-aids on theirs. Everytime some wiz-bang feature in Windows changes, it affects your Rockwell software because the two are so tightly integrated now.

4. Out-sourcing hurts! You can tell that RSLogix5000 wasn't written by PLC programmers. I've been told the initial releases were handed off to some programming unit in Rustackistan. They may have had good programmers there, but they didn't understand the purpose of the software. Since then, the software has come home and improvements are (slowly) being made. I still wonder if there are any controls engineers standing over the software guys, to keep them on task.

AK
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Old October 18th, 2004, 12:52 PM   #3
Ken Roach
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Would you mind terribly if I just addressed the issue then got back to highlighting the installation procedure guides in red pen ?

I read this morning about a customer who had a similar conflict between Mitsubishi GT Designer and RSLogix 5000 v13.

What worked for him (on his Win2K Japanese OS) was to uninstall both software packages, then reinstall first RSLogix 5000 then GT Designer. Now he can run both packages without conflict.

Your mileage may vary.
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Old October 18th, 2004, 02:56 PM   #4
panic mode
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Ken,

Would you mind just asking guys who develop this stuff to
kindly stop using shared resources like registry etc. or
anything they don't know how it works. Please first send them
to college or let them program in DOS...

It's not that with 600mb RSLogix5000 hog (versions 10-13)
they couldn't copy another 20-80mb of DLLs or whatever they
need and leave freaking Windows alone...

RS policy of uninstalling and installing in particular order
is a terrible practice of dealing with the problem.
Btw. the advice like one above always comes too late.

This is not first or second or third time they screw up...
RS does it all the time . My time has price, anyone who
doubt's it can ask my boss. RS should get some beta testers
and pay them.

Pay me and will change the tune but as long I have to waste
my weekends on fixing things that RS screwed up, you won't see
me happy.

I don't have time to waste by playing install and uninstall
game with gazilion of versions of RSL5k (or NetWorx, or RSview...)
just to find working permutation that would keep this (@#&%$) functioning.

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Old October 18th, 2004, 03:28 PM   #5
Ken Roach
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I didn't ask you to try a dozen things. I didn't say "RTFM".

I said "here, this approach worked for another user with the same problem".

I remain curious to find out if you will follow my advice and if it is effective in solving this specific problem.
__________________
- "Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool."

Last edited by Ken Roach; October 18th, 2004 at 03:33 PM.
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Old October 18th, 2004, 03:45 PM   #6
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Ken,

You're probably the only Rockwell representative who visits this site. And, it's lucky for us that you do!

You're the only person, aside from our Australian members (maybe I should be reading the manuals upside down), who has consistently given straight answers on all things Allen-Bradley.

AK
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Old October 18th, 2004, 03:46 PM   #7
panic mode
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Red pen installation procedure...? Where?

I've checked the red sheet titled:
"Read This Before Installing Your Rockwell Software Product".

It refers to RSNetWork and RSView problems

After CD was inserted, third option from top was
"View RSLogix 5000 Release Notes".

Link on top was "Install RSLogix 5000".

What else am I supposed to read? The "read me" after succesfull
installation? I never do it - if there was problem or conflict,
it's too late, damage is already done...

I will try your advice as soon as get hold of my Mitsubishi tech.
His suggestion was to instal GTD2 first (which didn't make much sense,
but I cannot argue with them - they have some ugly licence system now...).

Last edited by panic mode; October 18th, 2004 at 03:50 PM.
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Old October 19th, 2004, 10:25 AM   #8
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Ok, they both coexist on same machine now.
I was removing GT-Works2 and all RSLogix5000 versions.
I noticed two versions of .NET framework so I removed the
older one (v 1.0.3xxx) and left the 1.1 which came with RSL5K.
Next step manualy clean registry from all entries for both
GTD2 and RSL5K and reboot.
After that installed and re-registered GTD2 and then installed
RSL5k all versions.
They seam to work (keep finger crossed) but I still have to
test all other applications just in case.

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Old October 19th, 2004, 12:02 PM   #9
boner
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rockwell software sux.
'nuff said.
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Old October 19th, 2004, 07:22 PM   #10
Fred Raud
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Quote:
Originally posted by boner
rockwell software sux.
'nuff said.
thats quite insightful,,,if it was enough said,,then there would be no reason to respond,,

rockwell software is necessary,,granted it has its flaws,,but doesnt have more flaws than any OS thats been released,,and how much you bet you are running microsoft software on your computer,,Microsoft does recognize it has problems,,maybe rockwell doesnt step up to the plate as well,,but they do release updates,,and do offer support,,such as the rockwell support guy earlier in the thread(Ken Roach i believe)

so instead of saying it sux,,why not offer suggestions on how to make it better,,and dong give out the "they should fix it themselves" answer,,though a bit of beta testing would be nice,,but being its multicultural releases,,its hard to do,,


so be apart of a solution,,not apart of the *****ing,,would be my suggestion,,though im not a rockwell fan at the moment,,I still use it,,i use it cause its whats there and like people say,,if you dont vote,,you have no room to *****,,

Fred Raud
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Old October 19th, 2004, 07:45 PM   #11
93lt1
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fred Raud
,,,
What's with the multiple commas? I read it as anxiousness.

Sorry, just curious...
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Old October 19th, 2004, 07:48 PM   #12
Fred Raud
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a bad habit from the ole aol chat days,,

Fred Raud
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Old October 19th, 2004, 07:51 PM   #13
93lt1
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Ahh yes

I remember the ole IRC chat days.
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Old October 19th, 2004, 07:59 PM   #14
Fred Raud
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well,,for me was indicative of momentary seconds necessary for thoughts,,,now just habit after typing a sentence,,

Fred Raud
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Old October 19th, 2004, 09:38 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fred Raud
rockwell software is necessary,,granted it has its flaws,,but doesnt have more flaws than any OS thats been released,,and how much you bet you are running microsoft software on your computer
There are applications where Rockwell/AB is just a smart choice. Some of the work I've done on "patchwork" systems has shown me that.

I just hope Rockwell understands that many of their users are always watching for alternatives. Microsoft maintains its market share because there is no EQUIVALENT (note to Linux users: I did not say better) alternative. In the automation world, there are many ways to skin a cat. I don't want Milwaukee's "home team" to lose touch.

AK
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