Drives control theory. What do you think

As a guy that has to maintain stuff long after you integrators are gone I prefer old school analog unless there is a big advantage to going on a bus for a few reasons.

1. Simple. There are a lot of old school Joes and they aren't stupid. The most intelligent electrical person I have ever worked with hated anything that went on a bus and I understand why. He can troubleshoot it with a meter and not a laptop for one.

2. Replacement. When a drive dies with analog control I can replace it with any drive. When a siemens masterdrive for instance on profibus dies I am kind of screwed. ...

3. Obsolescence. Analog is never going away.

...
My counter to these arguments, and by the way yours a is VERY common opinion so I'm not picking on you specifically, this is a wider issue that you have happened to articulate well from your perspective. So please take it as an open discussion, not a criticism:

1. What is it that you can "troubleshoot" on an analog input and 2wire or 3wire command control signal to a drive? The drive is or is not being told to run, the drive is or is not getting the correct analog value. All of that info is going to be on the display of a networked drive as well. Then there is this new wrinkle; with modern arc flash rules etc., the troubleshooting of those hard wired signals must be done with the proper PPE, which in many cases will be the full blown "bunny suit" with the face shield, arc resistant gloves and boots, maybe even the balaclava and flame resistant underwear. So what really happens is that Relay Joe, who says "I've been doing this for 25 years without this silly suit" does his hard wired troubleshooting with his meter, but not the right arc flash PPE. This risks not only his life and health, but that of the entire company. If there is an accident, OSHA can shut the place down and any supervisor who allowed it can be put in JAIL for not insisting on his following the rules, or not having rules for him to follow. All of the unfortunate other employees, who had zero involvement in this, go home without a paycheck until OSHA is satisfied that this has been fixed and will not happen again. Being able to access and troubleshoot the drive via a network connection in a different room cannot get any safer from an arc flash protection standard. If the drive is off f the network for some reason, and you ate using a managed network such as EtherNet, the network will tell you almost exactly where the loss of communications is taking place so the bunny suit time can be avoided or at least kept to a barenminimum.

2. If the losses from your process being shut down for a day is not worth the cost of spare drives, at least of each frame size to act as emergency donors, then this argument is invalid. If the losses are worth that cost, but the bean counters refuse to include it in their cost of doing business, then they should be fired. Relying on the ability to swap out any drive with any other brand that is on the shelf somewhere is maybe expeditious, but utlimately self defeating in the long run, unless maybe you are a mobile business and cannot drag all of your spare parts around with you (trailer mounted machinery for example). What happens is that you end up with a plant that has 12 to 15 different drive mfrs installed, and nobody has the time or memory to be trained on any of them, so whenever one goes down nobody knows what might be wrong so the ONLY remaining strategy becomes replacement with yet ANOTHER unknown product and the spiral downward into chaos perpetuates itself.

3. Analog is never going away... No, but neither is networking of equipment, especially non-proprietary networks like EtherNet. In fact that is growing, while hard wired connectivity is shrinking, both rapidly.

The generation of technicians coming into the work force now is VERY used to networked devices, but get very little exposure to analog control any more. At the same time, "electricians" are no longer getting the same depth of control troubleshooting experience they once did, I know because I teach classes on VFDs to electricians, it's shocking how little they know now. Getting a license is now mostly about knowing all of the complexities of the NEC, it's too much for them to also learn more specific things, so all they get is OJT, mostly using the "sink or swim" method, because companies have little patience (or budget) for what is considered non-productive work. That knowledge gap will therefore only continue getting further apart. The future will be the electricians pulling wire in conduit and connecting it to switchgear and MCCs while meeting, and keeping up with, the NEC, but the day to day maintenance will need to be done by qualified technicians, whether there is a network or not. Those guys and gals will be fewer in number however, so they will not have the time or patience to track down the reason for a bad analg signal, they will want to walk up to a screen, see the failure and have the network tell them exactly where the problem lies.

As to the "meter vs laptop" issue, also spurious. If you have a network controlling your drives, you must have a controller. If you have a controller, you have access to everything inside of that drive via the network (if it was set up correctly). If you have networked devices, a network and a controller, but get cheap at the end and don't put in an HMI or an Engineering Work Station PC on that network, well then that is just being penny wise and pound foolish...

Please notice, the term OEM is not in the above, because this is not being driven by OEMs or even SIs, it is being driven by end users, and because OEMs and SIs ultimately must serve end users, they are adapting now to try to stick to one strategy rather that try to support multiple versions of everything. Get on board or stand aside and wave goodbye ...
 
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Agree entirely woth everything jraef stated in the previous post

I do too. This is a great discussion. I will post more when I have time. Long story short I am in a very old plant that has equipment from 1940 all the way up to 2013, it's like a time machine of electrical controls out here.
 
I wholeheartedly agree with Jraef also. No analog is not going away, but if your machine can tell you what is wrong with it I much prefer that. I have never had a problem with a properly commissioned fieldbus network that wasn't caused by someone "troubleshooting." If everything is routed, terminated, and programmed appropriately for the application fieldbus cabling should last the life of the machinery.
 
It is possible to keep both sides happy. Most drives have parameters that define the source of the run/stop/direction commands and the speed command. You could keep the network for monitoring purposes and use hardwired terminal signals for run/stop/direction and speed commands.
Even better if you can program a hardwired input to switch between using the network commands and using hardwired terminal commands.
 
It is possible to keep both sides happy. Most drives have parameters that define the source of the run/stop/direction commands and the speed command. You could keep the network for monitoring purposes and use hardwired terminal signals for run/stop/direction and speed commands.
Even better if you can program a hardwired input to switch between using the network commands and using hardwired terminal commands.

I like that idea but have never actually seen it done on a machine I look after.

Funny this topic has come up because I have to troubleshoot a machine tomorrow that I designed. I'm told it is slowing down about 40% from it's set point randomly. It's a parker 690 drive with a speed reference from a 1794 flex rack analog card from a SLC 5/05. There is no good reason for this to be happening electrically. It's about as simple as it gets.
 
Another important part of using a Network drive, is that that parameter should be very well documented, or even better if the plc has stored the parameter settings for the drive and downloads them automatically.
I remember very well the case some years ago, where we got a replacement drive for a servo from the manufactor, with the wrong parameter settings. First it almost damaged some mecanical parts of the mashine, and second as the the setttings were so poorly documented (they always used their software to set the drive) it was a pain to get the mashine to work. And that was a quite big company that produced the mashine.
 
Another important part of using a Network drive, is that that parameter should be very well documented,
The software we use with our drives (STARTER for Siemens Sinamics) allow us to store all parameters together with the PLC program.
I think that without this feature, it would be a nightmare to document all the 1000's of parameters that there are. And it is very easy to make mistakes if you have to manually make notes of the "most important ones" and write them down. And maybe you miss an important parameter.
 
Ever plan it with analog i/o, but all with fieldbus since 2000.
Fieldbus is mutch more easy case for all.
No excuses, only short education needed.👨🏻‍🏫
 
It is possible to keep both sides happy. Most drives have parameters that define the source of the run/stop/direction commands and the speed command. You could keep the network for monitoring purposes and use hardwired terminal signals for run/stop/direction and speed commands.
Even better if you can program a hardwired input to switch between using the network commands and using hardwired terminal commands.

Steve I have several of the AB PF525 setup this way. I use the HOA with a start and stop. mainly on pump systems where the operator can pump the tank empy and override the level controls.
 
I am as guilty of short falls as the next guy. Probably more so. But shouldn't we be doing this for every drive anyway?
Yes, yes we should...

We should also avoid fatty foods and sugar, call our mothers more often, remember to get the dog vaccinated on a regular basis and never fudge a few numbers on our tax forms. How likely are people going to be perfect at any or all of those? Not likely.

The systems that can store all of the drive parameters with the PLC program are a good first step, but I'll toss in a mention of the fact that at least one of the more popular North American brands can take it a step further and store the VFD parameters INSIDE of the PAC and if connected via EtherNet, actually be set up to automatically detect a different program in a replacement drive and then over write it's programming with the stored program that the PAC needs in order for the system to function. So in less than the time it takes to find that piece of paper or even navigate the PC that has the programming stored, it has detected, downloaded and restarted the replacement drive.

Then you can take the bad drive back to the workbench and probe it with meters to your heart's content...
 
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The systems that can store all of the drive parameters with the PLC program are a good first step, but I'll toss in a mention of the fact that at least one of the more popular North American brands can take it a step further and store the VFD parameters INSIDE of the PAC and if connected via EtherNet, actually be set up to automatically detect a different program in a replacement drive and then over write it's programming with the stored program that the PAC needs in order for the system to function. So in less than the time it takes to find that piece of paper or even navigate the PC that has the programming stored, it has detected, downloaded and restarted the replacement drive.

Don't most drives store their parameters on some kind of replaceable CF/SD card anyway? Just move it from the old one to the new one as you swap it out.
 
Depends on who I am selling to. Larger company that has experienced technicians, network all the way. Third world country or small low maintenance budget, hard wire, because they are not going to have people comfortable with trouble shooting networks.
 
Yes, yes we should...

We should also avoid fatty foods and sugar, call our mothers more often, remember to get the dog vaccinated on a regular basis and never fudge a few numbers on our tax forms. How likely are people going to be perfect at any or all of those? Not likely.

The systems that can store all of the drive parameters with the PLC program are a good first step, but I'll toss in a mention of the fact that at least one of the more popular North American brands can take it a step further and store the VFD parameters INSIDE of the PAC and if connected via EtherNet, actually be set up to automatically detect a different program in a replacement drive and then over write it's programming with the stored program that the PAC needs in order for the system to function. So in less than the time it takes to find that piece of paper or even navigate the PC that has the programming stored, it has detected, downloaded and restarted the replacement drive.

Then you can take the bad drive back to the workbench and probe it with meters to your heart's content...

My local friendly North American automation behemoth distributor has been pushing this auto-device configuration feature pretty heavy lately, touting it as the savior of Bubba's everywhere. All fine and good, and admittedly an impressive feature, but of questionable benefit IMO.
For this feature to be a selling point on buying vfd mfr X presupposes several things:

1. Your machine network is fortunate enough to have managed switches with port persistence.
2. Your IT and/or maint staff is fortunate enough to have personnel who know how to set up and troubleshoot item #1.
3. Your maint staff is also inept enough with modern industrial technology to know how to set up a VFD IP address or download a parameter file from a laptop.
4. Your parts stores never gets a drive in Stock with newer firmware than the drives on your machine.
5. Your plant management plans for VFD failures to be frequent enough that speed of replacement is more important than reliability and front-end cost.

In other words, a gimmick. A cool gimmick, but a gimmick nonetheless. If my guys can't manage to setup a new drive in less than an hour with the download software and a quick cheat sheet for setting the IP, then I've got the wrong guys!
 

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