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Old December 20th, 2008, 10:02 AM   #1
Veegertx
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Unhappy 1394 Servo Tuning - RSView/GML/SLC500

RSView main program/GML for the 1394/SLC500 I/O

Hey men I need some help if anyone has an idea. Starting to get the gray hair from this. Been fighting this for 3 months now but when they ramp production up to 22 hours a day just not a whole lot of time to play with it. Besides they expect me to do a million other things each night being their only VB programmer

we have 8 of these for about 6 years RSView/1394/Slc500 systems which wind aluminum or copper bar around a Mandrel for a secondary coil on a transformer. You can bet it varies a whole lot from 1/4" up to about 2" copper and alum. The rolls are up to 5' across. Reason I say this is when the thing is actually winding bar it's pulling the bar from that dereeler(not powered) with the mandrel which I'm trying to tune.

Recently we had 2 of these 1394 servo's go out, first one I replaced 6 months ago and just dumped the GML program back in and minor problem since it mainly runs smaller stuff.

Now our biggest machine we have running largest coils plus it also will be scheduled with smaller stuff. Replaced servo, dumped GML back in. Nightmare begins.

Ok so I read the manuals in time permitted(none) and try to start tuning this thing. I am clueless because this is first dealings with GML.

1. With a Slc500 that is monitoring all the I/O plus light curtain and the RSView program I learn real quick this is not going to be easy.

2. I can get the tuning set where big bar runs semi ok but they have to break light curtain sometimes to apply things and I get Mandrel Position error. (Thats recoverable but it makes things bad for operator)

3. Main problem I'm getting is Mandrel Encoder error(not recoverable)

? Should I hook directly to servo to try and tune but how would I bypass the slc stuff
? Autotune don't work currently cause it moves a very short distance and stops saying it's ok but its not. Don't think thats right cause its not actually pulling the load.

As usual, the original programmers aren't available since the 1394 was probably obsolete when we recieved these machines
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Old January 12th, 2009, 07:32 AM   #2
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Haven't had but about 7 errors since they came back on the 5th but its only running big stuff so I must be close to that.
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Old January 12th, 2009, 10:28 AM   #3
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You will need to give us more info on what is installed.

Why did the Previous 1394 fail? When you dumped in the program, did you go through the Axis setup? If so, did you do an Autotune for some amount of rotation? Are you giving it a Value that is large enough for it to drive it a few rotations? Did you check the Axis setup to be sure you had all the proper variables defined?

with a little more info, we can help you.

David
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Old January 13th, 2009, 07:55 AM   #4
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I done been through so much stuff since then I can't remember exactly the error or problem. Probably pop in when I'm not thinking about it. They changed our email system so don't have the conversations I had back then.

Well you know these things aren't cheap on the order of 6K for a repaired for just the 1394 turbo so I pulled one from a working machine and it worked without errors best I could tell minus the tuning part so in my 25 years experience kinda no brainer there.

We got this repaired one and I do know it's hooked up right and I dumped the program same as before, btw I did write down all those settings before changing. Was thinking different servo with diff motor can't be all that far out. Maybe just my inexperience with 1394. Unidrive and Flex prove me wrong on this though.

Quote:
When you dumped in the program, did you go through the Axis setup? If so, did you do an Autotune for some amount of rotation? Are you giving it a Value that is large enough for it to drive it a few rotations? Did you check the Axis setup to be sure you had all the proper variables defined?
Yes believe I done all that including compare the values against other machines that don't run as big of stuff as this one. But as I said with this system guess I just haven't figured out how to get around it yet cause Autotune only moves a 1/2" and says its done. Jumpered the enable and hooked directly to 1394 and autotune still fails.

When you save the GML it saves all those parameters don't it? Least when I download my saved semi working they go back to what they were before

Maybe I ought to get some pics from gains and stuff
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Old January 13th, 2009, 09:11 AM   #5
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This is all from memory so some of my terms my be a little "off":

Autotune is pretty useless in the 1394 unless you have the most basic system and know exactly what values will work well for tuning increment and limits.

The predecessor to the 1394 and S-Class made by Creonics had a very thorough and effective tuning algorithm. It would run the motor in both directions ramping up to full speed and stopping multiple times before trying to calculate ideal gains.

I simply don't understand why A/B broke it when they started tinkering with those systems after they bought Creonics. Can't cry over spoiled milk, just one of those things you have to live with. A/B Autotune has worked for me less than 5% of the time.

For that reason, you are usually much better off calculating the gains, using the gains that have worked in the past, and/or manually tuning them.

99% of the time there is a mechanical change in the system that leads the engineer to believe it needs to be re-tuned.

It could be something as simple as a worn keyway between a motor and a gear reducer, or increased drag from a conveyor belt with a bent roller...etc...

When you download a GML diagram, you will overwrite the gains values in the system module with those from the offline copy of the diagram. When online with a freshly downloaded GML diagram, you can then go to the tuning page and tune the system manually on the fly. You can set up a watch window to monitor position error to get a feel for how your tuning changes are affecting the performance of the machine.

But once you are done making changes, you need to upload them from the system module to your PC before they can be saved with the GML diagram for future use. I believe that upload function is on another tab of the tuning window.

Because of this, it is not uncommon for the offline copy of the GML diagram to have values for the gains and dynamics that does NOT match what is in the machine. The previous engineer may have not realized that he needed to upload them before saving the diagram.

You can also greatly affect the way the system behaves by having wrong values on the dynamics tab of the axis setup window. The acceleration and deceleration limits found there have a huge impact on performance, and need to be correct.

Hope this helps,
Paul
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Old January 13th, 2009, 11:26 AM   #6
davidg68124
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OkiePC is correct.

Your problems do seem to lie in the tuning. How much do you understand about the 1394's? I have had success with the autotune feature, but I usually do not have to use it. When you said in your original post that you are getting a Mandrel Position Error, are you seeing this in the PLC's HMI or are you actually in the GML code and seeing it in the errors generated by the 1394?

Is it connected by a comm link with the SLC or is it discrete handshakes?

Your Accel and Decel may be too high for this unit's operation with the larger stuff (i.e. it may be causing a positional error by falling outside the in position tolerance window since it cannot properly accelerate or decelerate to maintain the position).

David
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Old January 15th, 2009, 07:06 AM   #7
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been tied up on 2 machines been down awhile.

Quote:
You can set up a watch window to monitor position error to get a feel for how your tuning changes are affecting the performance of the machine.
I'll have to do that, have more time since start this year with a slowdown.

Quote:
Is it connected by a comm link with the SLC
Yes

And the errors are in the RSView program that runs it. Heres where I have it right now. Was able to get less errors by increasing Proportional Gain and adding the Integral Gain



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Old February 28th, 2012, 11:20 PM   #8
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Coil Winding Machines, Automatic Winding Machines - India

Synthesis India - Coil Winding Machines, Automatic Winding Machines comprises of various Automatic Winding Machines that are specifically designed to cater to the winding needs of various Sectors like auto component, Electrical and Electronics, white goods, etc.

http://www.synthesisindia.com/awm.php
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