AB Servo capabilities

[BITS N BYTES]

BNB, you should learn how to READ the entire thread instead of bits and bites like you name suggest before you jump too conclusions

Where in my reply did I say that anything was superior to anything.

My reply simple clarifies the point that AB's equipment is capable of motion control. Something that his integrator gave him false information on. I never suggest it is superior...in fact I'm working with some Indramat equipment right now and am extremely pleased with its performance...but that's not what Norm ask. He asked if the Compactlogix was capable of it. I told him it was and asked for further details on his project.

Remember - Read, THINK, and then post.

Tsk,tsk. Must have hit a raw nerve!

 

[TimWilborne]

Reason for Deletion: Bits and Bites blows chunks but everyone already knows that

 

[Clay B.]

Yes, he can. Just connect the CompactLogix to a RMC150 over Ethernet. Mounting the RMC in Jbox by the machine will reduce wiring too. The RMC shows up as a node on RSLinx.




Again this is not a problem. The RMC off loads the PLC and does all necessary coordination, PLC just needs to download parameters if necesary, tell the motion conroller when to start/stop and monitor its progress over Ethernet. Even a ML1100 work nicely.

Ok I have one question. You said can download parameters. Can I do that during a move or do I have to have everything stopped.

Reason for question: Old intromat and Pac Sci systems I have worked with require the drive to be stopped before changing any positions, sppeds etc.

A newer Bosh (intromat) system allows me to do this on the fly.
When setting up robots, this is an awesome feature.

I am figuring you allow this with the RMC's I just wanted to check.

 

[Peter Nachtwey]

Ok I have one question. You said can download parameters. Can I do that during a move or do I have to have everything stopped.

Reason for question: Old intromat and Pac Sci systems I have worked with require the drive to be stopped before changing any positions, sppeds etc.

A newer Bosh (intromat) system allows me to do this on the fly.
When setting up robots, this is an awesome feature.

I am figuring you allow this with the RMC's I just wanted to check.

Yes, no problem. We have been able to do that since the 80's. Changing motion commands on-the-fly is routine.

 

[1234]

Come on-

This board is for PLC Related Q&A ONLY. Please DON'T use it for advertising, etc

 

[Peter Nachtwey]

Come on-

This board is for PLC Related Q&A ONLY. Please DON'T use it for advertising, etc

So what is your suggestion for motion control from a Compact Logix?
Bosch, Indramat, Codesys, and B&R have all been mentioned. Do they work with a Compact Logix? I realize there is a fine line between advertising and presenting solutions but first, TW mentioned the RMCs first. Second, hokie said that the obvious solution wouldn't work or work weel. Finaly, it was Clay B that asked the question about on-the-fly moves. Do you think I should ignore Clay B or keep Norml in the dark?

 

[OkiePC]

Peter is right, he accurately answered a direct control system question.

This is a CONTROL SYSTEM site no matter what the good folks running it have for a name.

Peter never tried to advertise in any sense of the word, and is the ultimate authority to respond to legitimate question asked by another member.

Please don't stifle him.

Now, back to the subject at hand, I have a related question, which I could easily research elsewhere, but I would like it to be part of the thread and get it back on track.

Does the CompactLogix have ladder based motion? Servo Cards? If yes, Sercos/Analog/Both? I haven't gotten to work with A/B motion since the S-Class/1394 days, and may have misspoke ealier by jumping on the c-logix bandwagon.

CompactLogix motion: Is it a full motion command set? Electronic camming? If so, then it should not be too hard to write the logic that could turn 3 linear axes and a turntable into a rectangle pattern stitcher with rounded corners, and let the HMI edit the general parameters from which the motion profile can be calculated using the mechanics of the axes.

Whatever controller he chooses will either need to control the speed of the "stitcher" or be capable of picking up at the very least a velocity input from it. Ideally I would htink you'd want position feedback from the stitcher at least so that stitch length can be maintained (and therefore adjustable) throughout the whole pattern. That would give you the ulitmate pattern flexibility.

My only motion application experiences with coordinated motion was done with A/B IMC S-Class/1394 systems using GML Commander running 2 to 6 axes, and it was quite extensive using most every feature available. I can tell from just reading that much of that knowledge translates into C-Logix.

On the other hand...

If there is little I/O on the machine, it may be much less painful, though, to just use a motion controller, HMI, and no PLC...

Peter, (another machinery control question, not a price list request )

What are the I/O capabilites of some of the Delta controllers?

And is my previous statement worth expanding on? What I am getting at is, are Delta controllers used often to handle a whole machine?

PiEaCe!

 

[Peter Nachtwey]

Whatever controller he chooses will either need to control the speed of the "stitcher" or be capable of picking up at the very least a velocity input from it.

If there is a need to speed up or slow down the machine then a virtual master will be needed. The axes can be geared to the virtual master so as the master speeds up or slows down the other axes will speed up or slow down accordingly.

Ideally I would htink you'd want position feedback from the stitcher at least so that stitch length can be maintained (and therefore adjustable) throughout the whole pattern. That would give you the ulitmate pattern flexibility.

What is a constant feed rate as a function of the virtual axis. This will keep the stitches even. We actually made a commercial sewing machine controller for a a industrial sewing machine manufacturer only these machines and controllers only did button holes.

Peter, (another machinery control question, not a price list request )
What are the I/O capabilites of some of the Delta controllers?

It depends on the controller and configuration. The RMC150 4 axes 56 inputs and 26 outputs, with 6 axes 38 inputs and 18 outputs and with 8 axes 20 inputs and 10 outputs. The RMC75 can have 32 I/O that can be configured any way you want. Add 64 MB memory and a PowerPC and the PLC is like the tail wagging the dog. The cam table can hold 270000 points with is more than enough for any sewing pattern

And is my previous statement worth expanding on? What I am getting at is, are Delta controllers used often to handle a whole machine?

Often.

 

[TimWilborne]

And is my previous statement worth expanding on? What I am getting at is, are Delta controllers used often to handle a whole machine?

Let's not forget about Norm You might want to start another thread.

Also, just wanted to clarify that I am in no way associated with Delta Motion. My suggestion of the product was based of my personal evaluation of it and my observation of them in the field.

 

[Norml]

Hi guys,


I had second thoughts about starting this thread because of the Brand A vs. Brand B implications. (always a touchy subject)Different systems have different capabilities and that was the gist of my question. My reason for wanting to use AB is because of familiarity with the software and license ownership. I don't really care if it's CompactLogix or ControlLogix.

However, I (and my boss) was told by an Indramat integrator that the AB motion control system was an add-on that has limitations in complex motion control. Since he wouldn't eleborate, I was left confused as to which direction to take this project. If I have to undergo training to learn a different system, then so be it. Like I said earlier, I was really looking for application examples which will show that AB equipment is up to the task.

 

[BITS N BYTES]

Reason for Deletion: Bits and Bites blows chunks but everyone already knows that

Knew I'd hit a raw nerve. Didn't know it was the rude and infantile one as well!

Guess I need to get down to your level so here goes!

AHA, now I get it!!
Your posts are close to 90% AB.

By the way I do find your AB posts very valuable and helpful.

Thank You - Peace

 

[kamenges]

Originally posted by Norml:

Since he wouldn't eleborate, I was left confused as to which direction to take this project.

This should go without saying but:

NEVER, EVER, EVER trust anyone who comparitively bashes a competitor but can't elaborate on why the competitor is inferior.

As already stated I think you axis count pushes you into ControlLogix. I haven't seen anything in your posts yet that would disqualify AB as a solution. On the other hand, I haven't seen anything that would disqualify Indramat either.

hokie brought up the point about coodinated kinematic axes. Unless I misread your discription you don't have 4 axis kinematics. You definitely want to tie everything to a virtual master axis but, based on how I read you discription, you have at most two axis kinematic motion. The rest are just cammed to the virtual master.

With Indramat the logic is written using IndraLogic, which is a CoDeSys derivative. That's the good part. indraWorks, which is the Indramat software used to configure the system on an upper level and to change parameters on the drive, isn't quite ready for prime time, IMHO. Don't get me wrong. It has potential. It is just a little clumsy at this point.

You will be learning either way. Make sure that you can get good onsite support with whatever platform you choose.

Keith

 

[hokie]

I would need a few extra hands to count the motion systems that can talk ethernet/IP to a control/compact logix...

One can make a path planner with cams and a virtual master and make it work, no problem. It requires effort to keep feed rate and plan the rounded edges, etc. Not everyone is that Good, particularly if you do not have a good motion background. Also good luck trying to get someone to support it after you are gone.

I had to look at an application recently where someone did something similiar. To save some money on the controller, they did this applicaiton using cams and virtual master. Now that person works for a different company and the OEM cannot support the math in the machine...
Always best to follow the KISS method. Keep It Simple Stupid

 

[kamenges]

Originally posted by hokie:

To save some money on the controller, they did this applicaiton using cams and virtual master.

Do you mean someone wrote their own cam routine and virtual master in general purpose software? I would not recommend that. That's what Peter does for a living; let him do it. However, if the development environment and the motion controller support camming and virtual master axes as part of the firmware I don't see how this application wouldn't be a reasonable fit.

Keith

 

[TimWilborne]

Knew I'd hit a raw nerve. Didn't know it was the rude and infantile one as well!

Guess I need to get down to your level so here goes!

AHA, now I get it!!
Your posts are close to 90% AB.

By the way I do find your AB posts very valuable and helpful.

Thank You - Peace

Yes you hit a raw nerve. You read a few phrases of my post instead of it in it's entirety and made it out that I was saying one brand was better than another. This is the one thing I try not to do. When we do this it makes the manufacturers bow out of the thread. They are a great source of information but you can't expect them to contribute to a thread that is a Brand X versus Brand Y contest.

And rereading my initial reply it still seems logical...at least to me. Compare a SLC servo system to an Indramat and I'll admit hands down the Indramat smokes it. That could reach the definition of useless. But go with a CompactLogix L43 compared to an Indramat. I won't say one is better than the other since I already said I try not to do that, the CompactLogix is leaps and bounds ahead of the SLC...probably couldn't be classified as useless as far as motion control. Hence, the Indramat integrator is a definately a little out of date. Now I could have gone off the deep end like you did and said that the Indramat integrator was a liar or just trying to get the sale, but it seemed much nicer just to say he was probably just a little out of date.

Speaking of percentages, I have worked with one Compactlogix system and 5 Indramat systems so far this year.

And you are wrong about my post percentages
50% Pork...I contribute a lot of pork to the forum
50% AB and Mitsubishi. These are the two brands I work with. I have a little experience with Siemens and virtually none with Omron.