AC power USA vs Germany

[tmadore]

I need to ship a system to Germany and make sure that it complies with the power over there. I understand the 50/60 hz differences between the two countries but there seems to be some argument from our electrician about single phase line-line vs single phase line-neutral and devices not being compatible.
Is there a huge difference in power from here to there?
for example I'm supplying 208VAC 1ph from a split 480 3ph (line-neutral) in our factory now.
assuming that the machinery is rated for 50/60 hz at 200-230VAC 1ph wouldn't it work fine in Germany as well?
my electrician was arguing that you have a sinusoid on one line vs 2 sinusoids and that makes a difference.
Any advice?

 

[dmargineau]

EU Standards:

Single Phase = 230 VAC/50 Hz (Hot-> BROWN, Neutral-> BLUE, Safety-Ground-> YELLOW and GREEN stripes.
Standard European practice and ABYC requirements include ground-fault protection for the entire AC system as well as critical branch circuit GFCI protection.

Three Phase = 400 VAC/50Hz

You should be fine.

 

[JesperMP]

I'm supplying 208VAC 1ph from a split 480 3ph (line-neutral) in our factory now.

What do you mean by that ?
I guess you mean you have 480V phase to phase, and you have 208V control voltage (phase to neutral), derived from the 480V via a transformer.
If that is the case, you will be OK, if the system is designed similarly for 400V/230V instead of 480V/208V.

(I am guessing you are using the term "split" in error here. As far as I know, split-phase supply systems in the US are always 120V/240V, not 208V/480V. But I am not an expert on US supply systems).

Just to be clear, for a single phase control voltage, you must derive the lower voltage via a transformer with isolation between the primary and secondary.
The split-phase system does not exist in the EU.
And just if someone is thinking that you can just let the 230V be one of the 400V phases (because it is 230V to ground/neutral), then that is not allowed for control voltages, except for the most simple control systems (i.e. one or two contactors with very simple logic).

Also, check if the change in frequency has an unintended effect on pumps and conveyors and the like.

 

[tmadore]

What do you mean by that ?
I guess you mean you have 480V phase to phase, and you have 208V control voltage (phase to neutral), derived from the 480V via a transformer.
If that is the case, you will be OK, if the system is designed similarly for 400V/230V instead of 480V/208V.

Yes there is a transformer sorry for the confusion, and I used some wrong terminology. Thanks for the responses. I was correct in assuming that it would work here or there.

 

[jraef]

Calculate your ratios of V and Hz, they need to be within +-10%, less is best.

208/60 = 3.47 V/Hz.
230/50 = 4.6 V/Hz.
4.6/3.47 = 1.32, so the 230V it will receive in Germany will be 32% higher. Anything that uses induction, such as AC motors or transformers, including transformers in power supplies (if on the AC side) is going to saturate and over heat very quickly.

Now on the higher power side, 480/60 and 400/50 are identical. No problems there. So it's going to boil down to that you are doing with that 208V single phase, which by the way, is odd. 480 line to neutral is 277V, not 208V. So you are using some sort of special transformer to go from 480 to 208V? Why?

 

[Tharon]

So you are using some sort of special transformer to go from 480 to 208V? Why?

Judging by his previous post there is a 208/120 3 phase transformer. Which is common in the US.

Edit:
Or, maybe, a 240 3phase with a split phase for 120. Giving them a 208 high leg.

 

[Tom Jenkins]

When we ship to Europe we try to have all controls and equipment powered from 24 VDC power supplies. US power supplies rated dual voltage work fine from EU voltages.

 

[jraef]

Judging by his previous post there is a 208/120 3 phase transformer. Which is common in the US.

Edit:
Or, maybe, a 240 3phase with a split phase for 120. Giving them a 208 high leg.

Well he SAID;

example I'm supplying 208VAC 1ph from a split 480 3ph (line-neutral) in our factory now.

Then later said;

Yes there is a transformer sorry for the confusion, and I used some wrong terminology.

So who knows what he had, and that was my point. You're probably right however now that I read it again, he does probably have a 480-208V 3 phase transformer and is using 208V Line to Line to run something.

Regardless, the issue of the V/Hz stands. Ain't gonna work when it gets there, at least not for long.

tmadore,
So again, what IS IT that is running off of this 208V L-L circuit? Because IF that is something that CAN run on 230V 50Hz, and the 3 phase stuff can run on 400V, then you can get rid of the transformer altogether, because 400V Line to Neutral is already 230V, no transformer needed.

As to the electrician saying that stuff about "... you have a sinusoid on one line vs 2 sinusoids", that's complete nonsense. Volts are volts and we call it "single phase" because it's all a single "sinusoid". In other words if your equipment, whatever it is, can accept the voltage you have available (and maybe the V/Hz), then it is NOT going to make any difference if that voltage is measured Line to Line or Line to Neutral.

 

[jraef]

When we ship to Europe we try to have all controls and equipment powered from 24 VDC power supplies. US power supplies rated dual voltage work fine from EU voltages.

Best plan if it's just the controls.

Also in the same vein, if there are motors or servos using drives of any sort where there is AC to DC rectification, incoming frequency will be irrelevant. But voltage is still important.

 

[JesperMP]

Dont forget to consider the "non-electrical" part, aka "mechanical".

Also, check if the change in frequency has an unintended effect on pumps and conveyors and the like.

Especially anything that works centrifugally, i.e. pumps and fans will be greatly affected.