Air Pressure question

[Skiroy]

I did this once - we had some air horns from a fire engine - I nearly **it my pants they were that loud!!!!

LOL you guys are really funny. I dont know much about them they were installed already. I just ran the lines to them as instructed. I will find out. They are not horns. They are vortexes

 

[Skiroy]

Skiroy,

I took your drawing and added regulators. To diagnose your condition add the air pressure gauges where I have indicated. We will need the readings with the horns on and with the horns off. One thing I have not heard discussed is the valve(s) that turn on the horns. Can you describe where it(they) is(are)?

If I misinterpreted your setup can you provide a better description or drawing?

IOm sorry the vertical squares were my regulators. They were labeled but I lost the labels somehow. And there are no valve besides the main ball valve. They stay on full time. They are a bad system to create a suction as an attempt to draw brazing fumes up and out of the building. I need to get the info on them as far as CFMs.

But like I said before if I cut one off I still can not get the other regulator up passed 75psi.

 

[Skiroy]

Sorry for spelling Im at work so I have to be crafty when posting.

I know this is a stupid question but does CFM increase as pressure does through the same say hose?

Just for education purposes,if I were to decrease the hose going from the exit side of the regulator to the Air Horn,thus causing more restricton/backpressure will the pressure and CFMs go up?

Im just thinking of a water hose. When you put a jet nozzle on it and restrict the water flow the pressure and CFMs goes up right? I know velocity goes up.


The thing is every regulator in here is smaller than the ones on the Airhorns and they all can get up to atleast 120PSI. I find it hard to beleive the a regulator as good as a size as these can only do 80PSI. But I will look into it.

Depending on these vortexe's max CFMs, this could only allow a certain amount of pressure to build right? It could just be the Airhorns? I will look into this.

 

[DamianInRochester]

Sorry for spelling Im at work so I have to be crafty when posting.

I know this is a stupid question but does CFM increase as pressure does through the same say hose?

Just for education purposes,if I were to decrease the hose going from the exit side of the regulator to the Air Horn,thus causing more restricton/backpressure will the pressure and CFMs go up?

Im just thinking of a water hose. When you put a jet nozzle on it and restrict the water flow the pressure and CFMs goes up right? I know velocity goes up.


The thing is every regulator in here is smaller than the ones on the Airhorns and they all can get up to atleast 120PSI. I find it hard to beleive the a regulator as good as a size as these can only do 80PSI. But I will look into it.

Depending on these vortexe's max CFMs, this could only allow a certain amount of pressure to build right? It could just be the Airhorns? I will look into this.

A regulators size has nothing to do with the pressure it can provide. The size is more related to the flow capacity and sometimes precision. They can ordered to be rated at any number of pressures.

What is the exact model and part # of your regulators? There has been a lot of speculation and theories going on but really the first and most obvious place to look is the ratings. They are almost always posted right on the device.

 

[OkiePC]

LOL you guys are really funny. I dont know much about them they were installed already. I just ran the lines to them as instructed. I will find out. They are not horns. They are vortexes

Yeah, silly me...shoulda thunk-it wuz whacha meant

I actually have heard them sound like horns...

You want the vortex coolers (typically around 12SCFM) to have a high flow regulator, and likely a temp controlled valve rated for that.

CFM is gallons per minute for air.

If you're filling your swimming pool from 40psi (pressure, force, power) with a 3/4" hose and it's half way full, what do you think switching the hose to a 1/2" would make the 2nd half fill up faster or slower than the first?

I thought you might be setting up an alarm horn (intermittent), so forget using a 2" air hose for an accumulator.

The vortex is going to fire up for minutes at a time.

Also, be extremely sure the dicharge (slow cold air) tube inside the panel is both secure and routed to a drain...

Somewhere, some way, water will get blasted into your plant supply, and I have a dead 1756-PA2 to prove it.

They are gas hogs (vortex air horn coolers). Hugely expensive to operate, itty bitty living space...

Don't connect them straight to your mains without at least a regulator/solnoid, but I also recommend a local FLR or tap off of one and resize it for the added load, which is pretty huge. Think of someone running three or four air ratchets off of each of those regulators...

I also recommend that you get the right flow rated regulator and use a demand switch/thermostat of some sort.

The one that blew snot inside a logix PLC was not tied well enough inside, and something caused 100psi air/water sneeze to go into the panel! This was where a local FLR (also relative big-asz to meet SCFM of 12-14!) would have saved us but it was not properly maintained. Secure that hose to the inside as if you expect it to withstand your plant supply pressure. And, tie down the inside hose expecting somehow, someway, nasty plant air to get through the thing.

 

[Calistodwt]

It seems to me that your regulators air flow delivery capacities are too small to supply the requirements of your vortexes. You need to install regulators of the required capacity. If you cannot obtain the capacity specifications of your vortexes then it becomes a matter of trial and error with larger capacity regulators. You could also try installing a 3/4 inch globe valve in place of the regulator with a pressure gauge on the vortex side and open slowly until your vortex functions correctly. This would tell you if your needs are achievable with your current piping arrangement.

 

[Tom Jenkins]

You are looking at the problem with only half the variables in play. you need to consider both flow and pressure, and the relationship between them.

The vortex devices as a rule work based on flow rate. The pressure rating is simply defining the system pressure needed to push that flow rate through the fixed restriction of the vortex. Without enough upstream pressure the flow rate will drop and the operation will be diminished. The flow will be proportional to the square of the pressure, so 3/4 (75%) pressure produces 9/16 (56%) of the flow desired.

The regulators are a varialble restriction. They adjust their openining so that the downstream pressure is at the set value. Once they get full open they can do nothing more. They can never increase pressure. The flow rate through the reultor is proportional to the restriction. If the downstream flow demand is low, they produce a high restriction to maintain the set pressure at whatever flow is passing through them.

The hoses and piping upstream is a fixed restriction. The pressure drop is is proportional to the square of the flow. Twice the flow results in four times the pressure drop.

Let's assume you have an infinite (or a least adequate!) supply of air in your main, and a fixed pressure at 135 psi in the main. The sum of the vortex restriction plus the regulator restriction plus the hose/pipe restriction is the total system restriction. The flow will increase until the system pressure drop = 135 psi. If the regulators sense too high a downstream pressure they will increase their restriction, increasing the total system restriction, and the flow rate will decrease until the total pressure drop is again 135 psi. If the restriction of the hoses/pipes results in a pressure drop witht he regulators wide open at too low a flow to provide the required flow to the vortices, then your system won't run properly.

So, you need to look at the size of the hoses/pipes and the size of the regulators relative to your required flow rate. Increasing them should solve your problem.

You can't look at pressure without looking at flow.

 

[DickDV]

Calistodwt, that's what I meant to describe in my earlier post about removing the regulators. You said it much better.

What this method would give us is the pressure/flow requirements lacking any data sheets. That information will give us the pressure range required for the regulators and also the flow requirements for the regulators and piping to the horns.

Just be sure to start the test with the valve closed and open slowly.