Alternitive to AB

[Test400]

Hi everyone,

I am using AB controlLogix L32E along with PV600+ and powerflex40 VFD, and communicating via ethernet.

I was asked to look into cheaper alternitives to AB, would anyone here have any advice regarding this? I'd like to stay with ethernet comms as well,Unless there is soemthign better.

I'd really appriciate your advice on this.

Test400

 

[504bloke]

Depends what you are doing with the L32E ?

I have done quite a few jobs now with a Redlion G3 HMI (Has ethernet comms, RS232, RS485 and can do others with expansion) talking to one or more Parker SSD 591P or 690 Drives, with the G3 programming and the Drive IO i didnt need a plc at all.

 

[kolyur]

Regarding your HMI choice, I would highly recommend the Red Lion G3 series to replace your PV+. They have just as much functionality, including Ethernet comms, and the price is significantly less. There has been much discussion of them on the forums--search for "G3" and you'll find it.

 

[Stephen Luft]

Test,

What is your I/O count and type for your application?

We have already established what platform you are currently using, however, your cost will be equally affected by the number and type of I/O your application requires.

From an interface standpoint, you may want to consider the H-Series and Exter from Beijer. Information on the H-series can be found from our web site -

www.entertron.com/touchscr.htm

 

[Test400]

Hi guys,

thanx for all the replys.im looking into G3 right now.
the system we use this fr is to controll a shower system,for the paper and pulp industry.it's not a very complicated program.all it does is, spray water, through a traverse beam, which travels along a paper roll. vfds are used to control the speed of the traverse beam and the water spray.along with various sensors.

The PV600+ is basically used to enter, user parameters, presure,Traverse distance, ect.

The L32E, needs one 16 digital input card, one 16 input triac o/p, one 8 digital o/p, and 4 analog inputs.

Does the G3 function just as the PV+ does? for programing, it's tags, and creating, user templates, the buttons, admin pages ect. ?

 

[kolyur]

IMHO it seems like ControlLogix is overkill for your application. Based on the I/O you mentioned, you could get by with a Micrologix and several expansion cards. The ML1100 has built-in Ethernet but it only supports 4 expansion cards. You could add a 1761-NET-ENI to a ML1200 (to get Ethernet capability) which supports 6 expansion cards. The only issue with the Micrologix is that you may not be able to communicate with the VFDs over Ethernet. But if you're just controlling motor speeds you could add an analog output card to the PLC.

Regarding the G3, the programming software is free. Download it from here:
http://www.redlion.net/Support/Downloads/SoftwareLibrary/Crimson2.html
to get an idea of how it compares to the PV+.

 

[JesperMP]

It looks like your requirements are like this:
PLC with ethernet.
A reasonably capable HMI panel.
VFD with network connection to the PLC (because you want to change parameters in the VFD from the HMI).

Siemens has a full range of PLCs, HMIs and VFDs.
And there are demo projects where you can change VFD parameters from the HMI.

You would need a 315-2PNDP CPU to have ethernet.
I think that prices will be 10-30% less than a comparable AB system. If you are an old-time AB customer, then maybe you already have a significant discount from them. If you start with Siemens you have to negotiate a discount with them, and that may be easy or hard depending on how hungry siemens is to get you as customer.

How big is the VFD ?
I ask because the VFD may be the bigger part of the total cost, and there are also typically more significant discounts on VFDs than for PLCs or HMIs. To my experience AB VFDs are much more expensive than similar Siemens VFDs. So this is probably the most interesting part - when we talk costreduction.

You can save a significant part of the total cost by dropping the ethernet. A 315-2DP CPU has Profibus but no Ethernet, and that alone would cut approx 1000 USD of the total cost.

Btw. I do like AB PLCs and VFDs, but they are quite a bit more expensive than any other brand.
The hardest part for switching from AB to Siemens is to cross the cultural divide between these two worlds.

As for considering yet another solution, I strongly recommend to select a vendor that can supply a complete solution, and not just parts of the total solution.

 

[tacm]

The hardest part for switching from AB to Siemens is to cross the cultural divide between these two worlds.

X2

 

[GeoffC]

Personally I would look at Schneiders new M340 plc, a small plc with heaps of grunt (ethernet models are available), a Magellis hmi and Altivar drive. All on ethernet.
With probably less of a 'cultural divide' to cross
The above setup is currently my first preference when given a choice

 

[Durango]

I think you should look at the OMRON CJ1 PLC, it is widely used in Canada and it is less expensive by far comparing to AB

 

[SLC_Integrator]

I would second the reccomendation to look at Siemens. Once you get over the 'differences' I think you'll appreciate it is as, if not more powerful than an AB at a much cheaper price. Redlion is also a good choice and theres always GE with something like a Versamax. Very cheap, very reliable and their software is a joy to use (I use CME).

Any of these would be more than capable. For an HMI I would go with a Xycom mainly because they are identical to both Magelis (from Schneider) and Quickpanel (from GE) as theyre all made by the same parent company, the Xycom software just has better features, you'll still probably save about 50% or more on a comparable PV+, which I consider one of the most overpriced hunks of junk out there today.

 

[Test400]

Hi everyone, thanks again, for all the information.

To be frank, my background is in Electronics, writing assemly and C code, microcontrollers ect.I'm very new to Industrial Automation, and have a ton of stuff to learn.

I'm am slowly taking over work, from an outside contractor, and this was initially his design.

I'm not sure why he whent with ethernet/IP for this system, it looks a bit like over kill to me, like you guys mentioned before, ther are other comm systems out there that, will do the job just as well, without all the cost.

I beleive the reaoson, he whent with CompactLogix was so cuz of the mudule expansion, since, we build these panel, for 1,2,3.. indevidual stations in one control panel, with one CompactLogix processor.But i could be wrong,He could also be getting a royalty from AB for recomending, AB to all his customers.

I work in a Mechanical Indistry with guys with only Mechanical backgrounds, so, they don't have too much knoledge when it comes to Electronics and Automation. So they go with whatever the contractors or i say.

for one of these stations we are using these modules,..

16xdigital inputs
16xtriac outputs
8xdigital outputs
4xanalog input

To add another station, we need to go with 2 extra ,
16xdigital inputs
16xtriac outputs

And 2 extra Power flex drives capable of 460V.

And go with a 16xdigital output instead of 8.

Would another comm system be sufficiant for all this? As far as i know, Ethernet/IP, is by far the most fastest.But do we need something as versatile as Ethernet for this application?

Like "JASPERMP" recomended, i would like to get the complete pacage from a single vendor.

What are your thoughts regarding this?

BR
Test400

 

[JesperMP]

Would another comm system be sufficiant for all this? As far as i know, Ethernet/IP, is by far the most fastest.But do we need something as versatile as Ethernet for this application?

DeviceNet would be sufficient, and would also be completely native to an all-AB solution. However, on the CompactLogix there is already an onboard Ethernet/IP port, whereas DeviceNet would have to be added with a module.

 

[mjisaacs]

Toot Toot Again!

As far as HMI, I would recommend the C-More panels. I am using them with AB with great success. They have a SUPERIOR recipe function, etherIP, and a built in webserver, so you can transfer the recipe sheets in and out, log data and lots of other fun stuff over the network.

 

[cheesehead]

I would HIGHLY look at Pro-face