Automation and the dumbing down of the work force

[rsdoran]

Technically there has been a "middle class" all through history. Sparta had a militaristic society that required you to "train" for military duties to become a citizen but even if you failed you could become a tradesman or bureaucrat, the poor were primarily slaves that were captured.

The middle class as we know it today was not really created by the Industrial Revolution but by the Scientific Revolution, Enlightenment and Absolutism. The changes thru these eras changed how people thought and allowed more people to be educated which in turn created a major changes in the class system. It was no longer required for you to stay on "the farm" and just about anyone could "get" an education and in turn obtain a position that before was filled by clergy, military or royal family.

Progress, in general, is what has given us the ability to feed the increases in population that was mentioned. The problem today is that only some of the "world" has been able to use the advances made for development.

The US and many "Western Countries" have grown to a point where they have developed an attitude of "that work is beneath me" and should be given something for nothing. A good example in the US is farm work, even with the advances in technology in many cases large numbers of people are needed so "migrant workers" are employed...most of these today are "hispanic" or "latinos" from countries south of the US, in many cases the people are here illegally. Why do the "farms" hire illegal people? Its because they cannot obtain enough workers otherwise.

The factories that are using progress (automation) are not trying to fully replace workers but enhance their production capabilities for less money, as mentioned (and shown through history) this requires more "knowledge" from the workers. The problem AGAIN is the same as I mentioned, people think it requires too much and is beneath them.

The companies are pressured by government regulations, which are abused by both parties, ie the companies do not always fulfill them but even when they do the government still may pentalize them.

TAXES: Many people believe that large corporations do not pay taxes, this would be incorrect, they do pay but maybe not at the ratio that some feel should be paid. The other aspect is that for each employees "wage" it costs 3 to 4 times that in supplemental pay and insurance requirements.

Now we have companies, just as always, that want/need to lower their costs/overhead plus obtain workers. What is the solution? Work with other countries that need to develop, can provide workers, will not heavily tax them, will develop property for their use etc. etc. al.

Automation is not the issue with US workers, it is ATTITUDE. We, the people, should get paid more but do less. We, the people, should not be regulated but the services we need should be regulated or provided free (medical or governemnt). We, the people, should not be taxed but corporations should pay until it hurts.

Wealth is obtained by "doing something" which required an effort, there are only a "few" that are wealthy because they were the ones willing to "do something". Even if someone inherits "wealth" that person must "do something" to retain it or eventually it will be gone. Wealth is similar to being a "Prince" and having subjects, if you ignore them they will not support you. Reference: The Prince by Machiavelli.

History has shown that people, societies, and cultures change over time. We can not take anything for granted, we have to change too and also develop to keep up with the changes...this requires effort.

It is just my opinion but I believe the US (We the people) are destroying ourselves with a bad ATTITUDE. We expect so much but offer so little.

 

[elevmike]

Ron,

Great commentary.

I take exception with one issue though. Corporations, business in general DO NOT PAY ANY taxes, they just collect them from their customers, who collects them from their customers..etc all the way down to the poor working Joe on the street, he's the guy paying ALL the taxes.

Congress, state legislators, & municipalities can play any shell game they want to "tax big business" but the bottom line is Joe Blow pays it all in the end.

 

[rsdoran]

That statement kind of surprises me coming from a person that runs a company.
1. Take a look at your payroll...no taxes there you have to pay? If I am not mistaken FICA required in 2005 7.65% from the employer and employee. I think FICA is no longer a working process so another option needs to be considered. NOTE: The government calls this a TAX.
2. FUTA (Federal Unemployment Tax Act); (that has loopholes) but in general must be paid.
3. Any business that has vehicles will pay a higher licensing fee and/or ad valorem/property tax...this can vary from state to state.
4. Business licensing and taxes can vary from state to state but look at your licenses and see if there were not taxes applied..in my opinion the licenses are a tax. Its the same principle that is applied to obtaining a driver's license..ie its a priviledge to work not a right. There are a lot of WHAT IFS involved in this category though.
5. Workmen's Compensation; There are numerous "ACTS" for this category but they are still a form of "taxes"...In my opinion this is a good tax when not abused.
6. Companies have numerous loopholes that are available, that is one reason Microsoft did not pay dividends for years. If the had they would had to pay taxes first then the stockholders would have been taxed on the income. In general, even with the loopholes, companies showing a net profit will pay taxes even though they may not be as high based on income as the "regular joe".

I could probably think of more but I can only do so much writing/typing at a time right now.

 

[Sliver]

My father was a machinist/tool and die maker for 40 hours a week and a farmer for the rest.

I didn't want to farm and my older brother liked to operate the equipment so when my dad died my brother inherited the farm and ran it into insolvency within 10 years.

I was into creative pursuits..art, music until I discovered computers in high school and found I could use my creativity to produce something almost living in an interactive computer program.

I went to university on a work coop program but failed to complete my degree as the drudgery of business cobol programming sucked away my enthusiasm. Meanwhile a small group of pioneers at my university and others are starting the digital graphics/computer animation revolution.

I came back to the farm from university and took a 48 week government sponsored electronic technician course, which I excelled at without much enthusiasm.

With my new certificate I obtained gainful employment at a local cement plant that was hiring labourers, that also had some college education that may be relevant to other job classifications.

That was March 4, '84. I moved into the electrical apprenticeship in '89.

22 years later I still only get that enthusiastic feeling while programming a PLC or HMI to do it better than what was expected.

Now my sons are getting ready to go into the work force.
Do they want to work in a cement plant? No!
Do I want them to work in a cement plant? Not really.

The older one is finishing a college program in media/advertising/public relations.

The younger is artistic and is taking graphic arts next fall at college.

All this background is leading up to an actual point.
The world is changing. We cannot maintain the level of consumerism and consumption that we have reached, let alone absorb the third world's increase to our absurd level of materialism.
But what can be maintained and increased is the amount of information or content that can be made available for the masses to read, watch, listen to, interact with, through whatever broadband information exchange technology emerges.

My son that wants to be in media/advertising will have a job if he is any good.
My son who wants to create images and animation for people to enjoy will have a job if he is any good.
Anyone who wants to create content that can find an audience in the burgeoning global information exchange will be successful.
Phil Melore comes to mind as an excellent example.
My son may never own a 5000 sq ft home or even a car. Why would you need those? You need a communication link, a roof over your head, clothes, food, access to public transportation. The increase in the price of energy is going to accelerate this change and it's about time.

I think we will be fine as long as we are willing to accept the new paradigm.
If not, the planet will not support us.

Brian.

 

[Tom Jenkins]

That statement kind of surprises me coming from a person that runs a company.

I think you read Mike's post too quickly. His point is that businesses ultimately pass on any taxes paid to consumers. That is essentially true. If I bid a project, I have a fixed rate for engineering hours and programming and such. This rate includes both what I pay the employee and an adder for health insurance, Unempoyment Compensation, etc. etc. I don't sell to consumers, but the companies that do also pass on their costs.

This is also true of corporate income taxes. A "C" corporation pays taxes on profits, but they try to set their prices so they always have a profit to be taxed. In effect, if they want more profit left for dividend they up the price (assuming the market allows) to increase the pre-tax profit so the after-tax profit is up to expectations. Again, they effectively pass the tax on to the customer.

On a reduced scale the same thing happens when the so called progressive taxes try to hit the rich harder. Since that money isn't sitting around in a mattress, the smart investor tries to maximize his return on investment so that the earnings and profits meet his/her expectations. If the taxes are too high, the capital is invested elsewhere. That, for example, is why so many Brittish companies invested in American business. The people where the money is invested get the jobs and growth and so on, and the "home country" gets the philanthropy and taxes and so on.

It isn't 100% true that the working stiff takes it all in the rump, but it isn't 100% wrong either. Trickle down economics wasn't 100% right, but it wasn't 100% wrong either.

 

[Sheldn]

Alaric - My hat is off to you for getting so much conversation going.

Anyone see Charlie and the chocolate factory? Charlie's father lost his job screwing on toothpaste tube caps when the company installed a robot to do the job. What did Charlie's father do? He learned how to repair the robot.

My general thought is that automation allows the personnel to do more valuable work tasks. Installing a robot allows the personnel to do more important work. If the ones displaced by this progression don't see that this means opportunity then they will be left behind which is unfortunate. The person that says "the robot needs to be programmed and fixed, and I can do that" understands what opportunity means and the benefits that come from it including higher pay, more interesting work, etc..

One interesting tangent of the conversation is that our work force keeps getting more and more specialized. Each person does a smaller part of the process. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Specialization_%28functional%29

And hence the value of a person that is the "jack of all trades" which often is overlooked. As a point of reference see the thread regarding job requirements on this site for an Electrician/Technician. http://www.plctalk.net/qanda/showthread.php?t=21133 This company recognizes the need for someone that has depth of knowledge in some areas but also breadth in related areas.

It all goes back to how you look at it... It is all what you make of it. Opportunity stares you in the face every day.

 

[elevmike]

Thank you Tom,

That's what I'm talking about. The more we are taxed, the higher the cost is to our customers, who then pass their ENTIRE cost of doing busniess on to the consumer. We pay $15k to $20k+ PER WEEK in various taxes. If every red cent of that wasnt worked into the cost of our product, we'd be no longer in very short order. The same goes for every hospital, nursing home, apartment building, office building, auto company, etc that we send bills to.

Trust me, if we didnt have these taxes, the cost would be reflected in our billing rates do to the natural competivness of the market place.

So please pay your water & sewage bill, car payment, gas & electric bill, medical bills, & even your mortgage on time; because some of that money will come back to us and we will use it to pay "our/your taxes" imposed on us.

Thank you very much!!

 

[Terry Woods]

Peter...

To answer your question...

Originally Posted by Terry Woods
Sure, we are introducing automation to a lot of industries to make them more competitive with the low-cost foreign markets... but at what expense? In doing so we are doing nothing more than reducing the total "buying-power" of our citizens.

"Are you saying that just because you are a US citizen that you just have more buying power and those in other countries?"

C'mon Peter... Econ-101...

First, there is nothing in what I said that established, or defined, the level of our buying power relative to anyone else.

Now, regarding what I did say...

If I can't buy the same amount of goods for the same amount that I once did, then my buying-power has been reduced. Kind of a "duh" thing, ain't it?

To clarify... if I could buy a loaf of bread for $1.00 last week, but now, with the same wages, I have to spend $1.10... my buying-power has been reduced.

Let's say, in the previous example, that $1.00 for bread represents 1% of my disposable income. If the price of bread goes up to $1.10 then that loaf of bread represents 1.1% of my disposable income. My buying-power has been reduced.

Now, here comes the tricky part...

If my wages go down 10%, for whatever reason, then, even if the cost of bread remains at $1.00 per loaf, my buying-power has gone down.

If, on the otherhand...

...my wages go down 10%, AND the price of bread goes from $1.00 to $1.10 then my buying-power is reduced even more!

So... even if Wal-Mart brings a 20% reduction in prices... if the line-worker, blown off his line-job, is now making 25% less than he was making... he has lost buying-power.

And every Holiday (Christmas, Halloween, Easter, etc....) Wall-Street is anxiously waiting the results of sales...

Is that a "DUH?" or what?

Wall-Street enjoys seeing mergers and take-overs and down-sizing... and then, surprise of surprises, they are disappointed at sales over the following holiday... they have really got to be the stupidest bunch of idiots on the Earth!

Wall-Street hears the sad numbers and starts clamoring for more mergers, more take-overs, and more down-sizing.

If they can't get it by REAL economic activity, then maybe they can get it by "playing the books".

What a joke.

Peter... I'm well established in the upper middle-class. These complaints do not apply to any plight that I might have in this regard. These complaints are for those that are displaced by automation.

In the last several years I've heard an awful lot about this "compassionate-conservative" idea.

However...
In the last several years, I have seen neither, compassion, nor conservatisim.

All I've seen is... more for those that have... and less for those that don't have.

Trickle-Down? Trickle-Down my A$$!

JFK said it... ALL BOATS RISE WITH THE TIDE.

Apparently, some folks ain't boats.

It boils down to greed... you forkin ba$tards, nothing but greed!

Originally Posted by Terry Woods
The only ones that are making out, at least in the short term, are the ones that are taking the lubricant (money) out of the capitalistic-system by hoarding (greed).

"There must be a lot of stuffed mattresses."

No... the mattresses aren't stuffed... that un-taxed, US money is overseas, building shops to compete with us!

 

[Pierre]

So? " Automation and the dumbing down of the work force"

Is automation the cause or the effect?

 

[harryting]

I can't wait for the next response...

PARTY ON BABY!

..and then we all die.

 

[Terry Woods]

Hey, Pierre!

How have you been my friend?

Regarding the original question and your question...

"Automation and the dumbing down of the work force"

"Is automation the cause or the effect?"

Automation does "tend" to dumb-down the work force if they "tend" to have belief in the automated controller.

This is especially true when you have new workers learning how to use the process. The new workers don't "know" how problems used to be fixed. The new workers simply push a button... if it works, OK... if not, hmmm... wonder what's wrong?

In that respect, workers are indeed dumbed-down. They don't understand the reality of the process. But then, of course, there is a lot inside of the "black-box" that they are not aware of...

So... bottom-line... unless precautions are taken, I think it is both, "cause and effect"...

Whenever I make a change to the process I write and distribute ""Technical Bulletins" to describe the new change... how it works, and how to recover.

For those line-workers that are still on the line, I believe it is the responsibility of the programmer to let them know what is going on and how they can do their jobs!

The last thing I want to do is drive someone out of a job because he doesn't know what I've done to help him do his job!

 

[Peter Nachtwey]

It is easy to tell who the business owners are.

But wait! I said that automation is not dumbing down the work force. It is the work force that isn't keeping up with automation! I think that there are much smarter people today than 20 years ago in the sense that people know more. For instance, what did it take to be an electrical engineer 50 years ago? Now think of what you must know. It is hard to keep up with all the new things to learn.

Same goes for software. I see resumes with a half dozen languages written on it. I know one can only master one or two. I know C and C++. Recently Java, PHP, FLASH, Java script,C# etc have popped up. I don't have time to learn them all. No one does. Sure you could learn them all but then you wouldn't have time to do anything useful with them.

Now Joe six pack is not a nerd and is probably oblivious to the f the changes that is happening around him and to him and isn't even aware the world is leaving him behind until its too late.

 

[automatic]

Terry,

You have so far articulated the problems as you see very well. Now, what would you recommend as a solution to this - maybe you can give an ideal solution and a practical solution.

Thanks!

 

[katratzi]

good discussion. i'll now put my .00002 cents in.
(buying power shrinkage since the thread started)

I think automation does eliminate jobs, and the thinking that
the people who are being replaced by the do-bot 6000 should just
look for other opportunities, or get re-educated to repair/program said robot, well, that just ain't gonna happen.
Most people are not going to have the aptitude for this type of
work, not to mention the ones that were happy packing
boxes for $11 / hour. Lets face it, we are putting people who are
ill equipped to adapt out of a job sometimes, but automation isn't going away.

As far as the individual goes, Peter is correct when he states that it is up to you to be "better than the next guy" to provide for yourself and family. YOU have to want to learn more
than how to play the latest x-box game to succeed. But Terry is
speaking more about the effects of automation on a whole
economic class rather than individuals. The "middle class" IS
being squeezed hard, partly their/our own fault, but corporate
greed lately has just been astonishing and depressing. I need
to try and be an optimist like Tom.

my .00002 (whoops .000002) cents

- charles

 

[S7Guy]

I feel the same way as Mike does when it comes to taxes. I own my own business, and personally I really don't worry about taxes, as my customers are the ones footing the bill. I decided when I went into business for myself what I wanted for a net income, and then reverse engineered my rate. On the surface it looks like I pay a lot of taxes, but then I remind myself that my net income is a constant, no matter what.

i agree, there is no more middle class. the gap between rich and poor gets bigger and bigger.

I keep hearing this. What evidence is there that the middle class doesn't exist anymore? It sounds like cheap talking points, designed to rev up the grey-haired pony tail segment of the population. In reality, there are tens of millions of wage earners in the 30k to 90k bracket, and most of them would be considered middle class.



And I also keep hearing about how the span between the rich and poor keeps growing. Well, how is that actually being calculated? Are people worse off because of it? Is it only the rich who are getting richer, or are some middle class also getting richer? For instance, for the sake of numbers, let's say that in 1910, the richest guy in my town earned 10k (let's say he was the local bank president), and the average laborer earned $1000. Fast forward to today, and the same bank dude will be earning maybe 150k (an increase of 15x), and the laborer will be earning about 30k (an increase of 30x). The banker now makes only five times as much, but the difference in their wages went from $9k to $120k. So, what numbers are being used? Well, it depends on who you are talking to. Some people will be upset that some people earn $120k more than others, but in reality everyone is much better off than they were in 1910. I really don't care how rich other people get as long as they don't keep me from trying to get rich too.



And, I wish I could find the source again, but I read a little while ago that the average wage of an engineer was much, much more than the factory workers in 1900. Today, it is almost expected that the hourly employees will make more than the salaried engineers. So, the gap has been more than closed in many instances. The whole thing is much more complex than just worrying about who's getting richer at any given moment. The bottom line is that we are all better off than ever before, and I have no reason to think that is going to change.