DDC vs PLC

Tripper

Member
Join Date
Dec 2005
Location
Wodonga
Posts
48
Hi, I'm fairly new to the PLCs (coming from the BMS,DDC Bacnet world). I am currently doing rotating 12h shift work in a food manuf. plant. (Steep learning curve!), I was just curious if anyone else has worked in both areas, because although the basics appear to be the same, I cant get over how the two industries are so different.
Clive
 
PLCs developed to meet the needs of general purpose industrial control. DDC developed to meet the specific needs of HVAC and building management. DDC is generally lower cost, less capable, but has specialized functions for heating control etc. PLCs can do anything a DDC can do, but you may have to do more programming. DDC would have trouble with many industrial control applications.
 
I probably should have been more specific,

DDC
the controllers have been flash upgradable over network (for many years)
Peer comms, directly program points on other panels with prioritys
No limits on SCADA tags (we use Citect here)
The processors card have upgradable RAM
The entire network can be backed up with a click of button (or reloaded)
Programs copied from one panel to another with drag/drop
Analog points jumper selectable from 0-5v,0-10v,0-20ma,4-20ma

etc etc, (I know I'm bias and its what your familiar with)
 
Tripper said:
I probably should have been more specific,

DDC
the controllers have been flash upgradable over network (for many years)
Peer comms, directly program points on other panels with prioritys
No limits on SCADA tags (we use Citect here)
The processors card have upgradable RAM
The entire network can be backed up with a click of button (or reloaded)
Programs copied from one panel to another with drag/drop
Analog points jumper selectable from 0-5v,0-10v,0-20ma,4-20ma

etc etc, (I know I'm bias and its what your familiar with)

O.K. you just discribed the most basic function of a PLC..a typical DDC system (From my understanding) works in seconds where as a PLC deals in Micro seconds, i watched a DDC programmer fight with getting 2 pumps to start (It was a tricky application)..I had the logic figured in my head for a plc in about 5 seconds..It took about 4 or 5 hours for him to get it just so..and he was lucky the system was a little forgiving..

I look at a DDC controler as a scaled down version of a PLC..Sure they have some nice features such as versitile inputs..(The last system i installed had selectable inputs..Digital or analog) However that versitlity is a trade of for speed and functionality..

perhaps you are right..it all depends on what you used to..
 
While I agree the PLC is designed for higher speeds, harsh environments, more reliable and far more modular for quick repair/ modification..



The flip side to the coin:



Synonyms held at pc level to save memory…memory is cheap nowadays;



Ask your average PLC control guy to write a simple PID loop and tune it and they shudder, not because they don’t understand as much as the software is cumbersome and confusing. I know..I know .. AB self tuning loops…how long did that take.



A programmer was asked to do a dew point calculation on a SLC and the end result was the expensive purchase of a separate device.



I think I’m just saying in between the two is the perfect controller
 
Ahh Jeez..you just opened a can of worms!!

as a DDC Programmer can you explain what a PID is?..I don't mean any disrespect here..Becouse i never knew or programmed them until recently..however i challenge you to set up a DDC controller with a PID to control my last project..

If you require details before taking the challenge then that should tell you something..:)

Seriously it was a *****..and a micro second matered..I can honestly say a DDC controller could not have done it..
 
Tripper said:
While I agree the PLC is designed for higher speeds, harsh environments, more reliable and far more modular for quick repair/ modification..



The flip side to the coin:



Synonyms held at pc level to save memory…memory is cheap nowadays;



Ask your average PLC control guy to write a simple PID loop and tune it and they shudder, not because they don’t understand as much as the software is cumbersome and confusing. I know..I know .. AB self tuning loops…how long did that take.



A programmer was asked to do a dew point calculation on a SLC and the end result was the expensive purchase of a separate device.



I think I’m just saying in between the two is the perfect controller

So get a ControlLogix.
Much faster then DDC, much more capable of PID & motion on the same platform then a PLC.
End of thread.
 
fair enough,

I suppose if you cant beat them, join them.
thank you for your input, its just something that nags me.
 
Tripper,

Have you seen the CLX line yet?
It's very impressive, and can do just about anything you'd need it to do.
 
We are slowly upgrading to ControlLogix here , have done the rs5000 course and I agree..it is feature packed and being an if-then-else guy I like the ability to program in different languages.
I must admit though, it scares me a bit how two processors can own the same output card on a different rack if set up wrong (unless I have got that wrong)
 
Tripper said:
I probably should have been more specific,

DDC
the controllers have been flash upgradable over network (for many years)

I have just read about ControlFlash for ControlLogix....

Thats the problem with 30-40 year olds, they think they know everything.

I think I might shut mouth until I know what I am talking about!!
 
CLX output cards can only be owned by one processor. Input cards can have multiple owners.
Easy when you think of it. The input cards are controlled via something external to the PLC so they just pass data into whicheverprocessor wants it, but you couldnt have 2 masters for an output.
Regards Alan Case
 
Another interesting thread. Have a look at the thread running http://www.plctalk.net/qanda/showthread.php?t=20085I have not made very complimentary comments about BACnet. What I have written is only the half of it and I have been a good boy and not mentioned names. If I ever see BACnet again I will scream - until someone can prove to me that it has graduated to a mature technology. LON - forget it.

Analog points jumper selectable from 0-5v,0-10v,0-20ma,4-20ma

Been around in a lot of PLCs for years and with some brands you can set an input card for all of these and -10 +10v. Not to mention mean reads built in (buffer for average of say 16 reads), scaling, paek hold, input disconnection function (4-20ma, -10 +10v and 1-5v etc etc).

Programs copied from one panel to another with drag/drop

Not always drag and drop but easy anyway.

The entire network can be backed up with a click of button (or reloaded)

Yes.

The processors card have upgradable RAM

Not as available. Most now have flash cards that can be used for a lot of things.

No limits on SCADA tags (we use Citect here)

My preference also. They have a hiuge installation at Olympic Dam in Ozz that has been claimed as the largest SCADA system in the world. My understanding is that there are over 1 million tags and a lot of PLCs out there. Apparently, the scan time on the SCADA is about 2 seconds - pretty awesome.

Peer comms, directly program points on other panels with prioritys

Yes - I do that to nine PLCs via modem on line in a live power station from my home office.

Ask your average PLC control guy to write a simple PID loop and tune it and they shudder, not because they don’t understand as much as the software is cumbersome and confusing. I know..I know .. AB self tuning loops…how long did that take.

Been around for quite a while now. Omron had it a while ago.

A programmer was asked to do a dew point calculation on a SLC and the end result was the expensive purchase of a separate device.

SLC is a bit old. The newer Omron PLCsa have 64 bit maths including floating point. Should not be too difficult for someone that is in to that level of maths. I am not.

Seriously it was a *****..and a micro second matered..I can honestly say a DDC controller could not have done it..

They are too slow for that.

if-then-else guy

That has been available in some PLCs for many years now.

I have just read about ControlFlash for ControlLogix....

You have been able to flash upgrade many PLCs for some years now. Most do not allow the operation on the network but at the actual processor. Do not forget that DDC does not normally control machinery that could kill someone. Better, in my view, to make you go to the machine and do the flash upgrade to make sure you do not kill someone.

Thats the problem with 30-40 year olds, they think they know everything.

Younger ones just out of uni are far worse believe me. Know everything - all most of them ever know is how to do calculations - absolutely no pratical experience at all. Should be locked up in a cage because they do not want to listen and take advice - then wonder why the thing does not work and all us old blokes say "I told you so". Have done that many times. By the way, they all run rings around me with maths and theory.

CLX output cards can only be owned by one processor. Input cards can have multiple owners.

It has been possible to do something similar for many years with some brands on networked PLCs by mapping the input to the network - that way any PLC on the network can use the input. Not difficult - I do it over a network all the time. By the way, I am not talking about send and receive commands but mapped I/O - map bit 3200.01 in one PLC and read it as exactly the same bit number automatically in every PLC in the network. Most useful.
 

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