Help convincing managment AB upgrade

[Tom Jenkins]

It is my understanding that AB is going to be pricing the SLC systems such that CompactLogix will be more economical as part of phasing the SLC out. Note that support will be around for a long time. I guess I'd only replace the old stuff when failure or comm system upgrades force it. Even though I hage Siemens, are they really causing a problem?

Having said that, there is no point in upgrading to anything but the CompactLogix sereis that I can see.

 

[David_Emmerich]

yes there is get away from ab altogether...

 

[dwoodlock]

I am currently dealing with a situation where, my company bought a new machine from a manufacturer without consulting our maintenance dept about it.

Ended up with a brand new machine with a 5/04, and a PVP1000 HMI. Huge pain in the ***, if you need to make program changes, which I do because im adding vision, and sorting. PVP1000 has a ethernet port and a serial port, 5/04 has a serial and DH+. ended up buying a prosoft DH+ to ethernet converter. problem is solved now, but it should'nt have been an issue in the first place.

My experience after dealing with this is, dont buy anything new thats not ethernet. Siemens or AB, just make sure you get something ethernet capable.

 

[bce123]

yes there is get away from ab altogether...

Thats called an B to D convertor you convert AB to AD

 

[bigbuckaroo]

In the OP, one of the systems is already Compactlogix; most of the work has been done. Unless the OEM is trying to get rid of some surplus equipment or a panel that was cancelled after being built.

This is my line of thought also. If a new machine is purchased and it comes with a Compactlogix does it make sense to upgrade a machine to something different? I would have to answer no but there are still some things to work out with all of this.

 

[bigbuckaroo]

It is my understanding that AB is going to be pricing the SLC systems such that CompactLogix will be more economical as part of phasing the SLC out. Note that support will be around for a long time. I guess I'd only replace the old stuff when failure or comm system upgrades force it. Even though I hage Siemens, are they really causing a problem?

Having said that, there is no point in upgrading to anything but the CompactLogix sereis that I can see.

So far the Siemens stuff is not causing a problem that I am aware of. Also we do not have anyone on staff me included that has knowledge of Seimens. Part of what is driving this upgrade is the information that the S5 stuff is obsolete and if the equipment was to go down for anything PLC related we would be screwed. Also the propriatiery HMI is another consideration. They are not something we can work on and the new machine has the PV+ so that is a bonus if you want to call it that.

 

[Bit_Bucket_07]

I don't think that you need to worry about AB dropping support for the SLC anytime soon. There is too large an installed base. As has already been pointed out, however, AB nudges their customers toward their newer lines by overpricing their older models.

That said, I'd go with Ethernet comms, no matter which PLC you choose.

 

[Oakley]

Are these machines the same (maybe not identical, but controlled the same)?

If so, you may (depending on who owns the code) duplicate the control system of choice onto the others.

I would definitely standardize on a platform.
Look for enhanced features - one thing management loves is OEE.
Consider historian options.
Even options such as Preventive Maintenance packages.

 

[bigbuckaroo]

Are these machines the same (maybe not identical, but controlled the same)?

If so, you may (depending on who owns the code) duplicate the control system of choice onto the others.

I would definitely standardize on a platform.
Look for enhanced features - one thing management loves is OEE.
Consider historian options.
Even options such as Preventive Maintenance packages.

All 7 machines do the same thing. We do not have a documented copy of the PLC program. The manufacture would supply one if a nondisclosure form is signed but no one here wanted to make the decision to sign it. All I have is an uploaded copy from an AB unit. I have not looked at it for some time but if memory serves it is not easy to follow. One of the suggestions was if we could reverse engineer them and upgrade/change the Siemens units to AB. That would definately require alot of time on my part and frankly I am not sure if that would be the best use of my time. You never know maybe the higher ups will decide to go that route but my gut tells me they won't.

 

[Brijm]

My distributor keeps telling me, that the SLC series processors are going to be increasingly difficult to get. Something to do with the processor factory being hit by the tsunami.

In any case, this reminds me of some customers recently, who have a press control with a 1400e touchscreen, PLC 5, and obsolete servo drive. They wanted to upgrade parts of it, and I tried to explain that the whole system is obsolete, and needs upgraded. I thought this made more since, than engineering it a piece at a time... But they complain, that the machine was bought only 8-10 years ago.... My response, is the OEM, didn't update their controls, and where putting the same control in, as it was becoming obsolete.

 

[Ken Roach]

I wouldn't be surprised if there are component shortages due to the tsunami, but this far down the road they won't be acute. I know the DH+ chipset is getting scarce, which is one of the reasons I mentioned I wouldn't use DH+ unless I had to.

One good thing about A-B in North America is that much of their hardware is made here, in Ohio, Wisconsin, and Ontario. The Logix-family CPUs, like the PLC-5 and SLC-500, are made in Twinsburg, Ohio. The MicroLogix family and much of the distributed I/O are now manufactured at RA Singapore: that's an owned-and-operated RA facility rather than a contract manufacturer. Other manufacturing is widely distributed; SLC power supplies come from Japan, safety switches from Switzerland, POINT terminal bases from China, some relays from Mexico.

 

[bigbuckaroo]

I wouldn't be surprised if there are component shortages due to the tsunami, but this far down the road they won't be acute. I know the DH+ chipset is getting scarce, which is one of the reasons I mentioned I wouldn't use DH+ unless I had to.

One good thing about A-B in North America is that much of their hardware is made here, in Ohio, Wisconsin, and Ontario. The Logix-family CPUs, like the PLC-5 and SLC-500, are made in Twinsburg, Ohio. The MicroLogix family and much of the distributed I/O are now manufactured at RA Singapore: that's an owned-and-operated RA facility rather than a contract manufacturer. Other manufacturing is widely distributed; SLC power supplies come from Japan, safety switches from Switzerland, POINT terminal bases from China, some relays from Mexico.

Great information!! Update to this ongoing discussion: it now appears instead of the obsolete standard Panel View, the upgrade would include a Panel View+. Not sure if this was a typo on their end or someone trying to pull a fast one but Panel View + is now the HMI. How does this fit into the whole DH+ equation?

 

[dmargineau]

PV+ HMIs (700, 1000, 1250 and 1500) offer a DH+/RIO/DH485 All-In-One Communication Adapters- 2711P-RN6.
For PV+ 400 and 600 only a DH+ Communication adapter- 2711P-RN8 is available.

 

[bigbuckaroo]

More to the point I was wondering if Ken's comment about DH+ chipset becoming scare affects the PV+ communication module 2711-RN6 or if he was refering to the SLC end.

 

[Ken Roach]

It will eventually affect all DH+ devices: SLC-5/04, PLC-5 domino plugs, 1784-U2DHP, 2711-RN6, everything.

But I don't have any insider information on how much stock they have, or whether RA will develop another vendor or buy the tooling for in-house production. RA might have ten years of stock, or they might have two. Only your RA district office can tell you.

If the HMI is going to be PanelView Plus, that would make me even less enthusiastic about using DH+. The PanelView has an Ethernet port, the SLC and CompactLogix are available with Ethernet, and it's just as cheap and easy to connect as DH+ is.

ControlLogix isn't exactly cutting-edge: the L1 came out in 1997. The obsolescence risk is moderate with SLC-5/04, and very low to extremely low with CompactLogix.