Hi Sir

plc's networks

Hi every body
i have a PLC background and i have done some programming on omron plc. however i am trying to find out about the relaibility of plc & plc's networks.

can any one help me to find any paper or text book or any document that provide some information on plc relaibility and plc networks.
 
Salma,

1) New topic = new thread..
2) Your question is SUPER ambigious. What PLC? What's the application. What's the enviorment?
 
Mike,
this may be off topic, but what does "VVVF" stand for ?
I think it is another acronym for a VFD, but what is it really ?

In the past I have heard of "VFD", "VSD", "FU", but not "VVVF".
 
Variable Voltage Variable Frequency.

I've heard it used more often in the East (Korea, in particular) than in the West.

The OP needs to see that PWM can be used for both DC and AC modulation. Most PLC's don't do AC modulation with PWM. AC Drives do that, which is why PLC's don't have to. Three phase AC modulation is even more rare for a PLC.

I can think of none that do AC modulation, myself. Running a motor with PWM is a little more involved than just saying "pulse on, pulse off" at the right frequency.
 
Original question:
i would like to know if it is possible to use a PLC to control any induction motor less thank 1hp with the PLC having a PWM ?

What is PWM? Pulse width modulation (PWM) is a powerful technique for controlling analog circuits with a microprocessor's digital outputs.

The simple answer is yes. An AC drive is needed for an AC motor. A drive amplifier will be needed for stepper motors. Small DC motor could be used directly (look at RC car motors), the limit is on output current ratings. SSR's could be used to increase the current rating.

A transistor acts as a gate to allow a precise amount of current to flow to the motor. As this gate is rapidly switched on and off, the amount of current which flows is dependent upon the ratio between On time and Off time. The larger this ratio is, the more current will flow. The lower the ratio, the less current will flow. Since the transistor is pulsed, the technique is known as pulse width modulation.
Through feedback systems, this PWM technique can also precisely control the voltage allowed to generate the armature field of the motor, and thus the speed is controlled.

Thanks Terry for that reminder about "working" voltage. For all practical purposes when we refer to RMS its the equivalent of a DC voltage.

I do not recommend this for anything but a study project. Its reinventing the wheel and the cost does not make it worthwhile.

The SSR's could work....use a 3ph bridge rectifier to convert the power to DC then use a 3ph SSR controlled by PWM from the PLC. The output will be a varied DC voltage...what AC drive isnt?

The easiest way to do this project would be use an AC drive and allow the PLC to control the speed. This could be done using PWM, analog or digital signals.
 
reply

rsdoran said:
Original question:


What is PWM? Pulse width modulation (PWM) is a powerful technique for controlling analog circuits with a microprocessor's digital outputs.

The simple answer is yes. An AC drive is needed for an AC motor. A drive amplifier will be needed for stepper motors. Small DC motor could be used directly (look at RC car motors), the limit is on output current ratings. SSR's could be used to increase the current rating.

A transistor acts as a gate to allow a precise amount of current to flow to the motor. As this gate is rapidly switched on and off, the amount of current which flows is dependent upon the ratio between On time and Off time. The larger this ratio is, the more current will flow. The lower the ratio, the less current will flow. Since the transistor is pulsed, the technique is known as pulse width modulation.
Through feedback systems, this PWM technique can also precisely control the voltage allowed to generate the armature field of the motor, and thus the speed is controlled.

Thanks Terry for that reminder about "working" voltage. For all practical purposes when we refer to RMS its the equivalent of a DC voltage.

I do not recommend this for anything but a study project. Its reinventing the wheel and the cost does not make it worthwhile.

The SSR's could work....use a 3ph bridge rectifier to convert the power to DC then use a 3ph SSR controlled by PWM from the PLC. The output will be a varied DC voltage...what AC drive isnt?

The easiest way to do this project would be use an AC drive and allow the PLC to control the speed. This could be done using PWM, analog or digital signals.

thank you. i'll look into this alternative. the previous proposal would be too costly for my project.
 
ok after having a hour discussion, it was recommended to make a pulse output train from the PLC, to drive an external 3phase inverter and then step up for the ac motor .would it be possible to split the 1output pulse train from the PLC to 3 for feeding the 3phase inverter that requires 3 separate inputs?

thanks
 
I just have to ask this...

Is this an educational or hypothetical question? or are you actually planning on using this 'technique' in a real application?

If it's a real application, I'd definately use an AC Drive (Doing what it is DESIGNED to do), and a PLC with an analog output (doing what it is DESIGNED to do). If your heart is set on PWM for some reason, then use a stepper motor, and a stepper-motor drive that accepts PWM inputs (Gekko and others make very inexpensive stepper drives like this).
 
ok after having a hour discussion, it was recommended to make a pulse output train from the PLC, to drive an external 3phase inverter and then step up for the ac motor .would it be possible to split the 1output pulse train from the PLC to 3 for feeding the 3phase inverter that requires 3 separate inputs?

Do you have a clue to what you are doing? Do you have any concept on how to control a VFD?

I think you need to study ALOT more before trying an endeavor of this magnitude.

NOTE: In most cases I am one of the most willing to assist but in this case I do not believe you have studied or learned enough in this area
 
Well, I have to ask this...

What PLC can provide an accurate PWM singnal? What drives accept a PWM signal as a reference? Why bother?

Cry Baby, for all practical purposes FORGET the PWM idea, and tell us about your application so we can stear you in the proper direction. What do you want your motor to do?
 
I think I understand what Crying baby is trying to do. Maybe he/she can verify if I'm right.

First, the intent is to create a crude motion controller using an inexpensive GE Fanuc Micro PLC. The PLC does not have analog output capabilities, but it does have a DC output that can be configured for PWM.

When you make a graph of velocity on the vertical axis and time on the horizontal axis, the area between the line that represents velocity and the horizontal axis is mathematically equal to the distance traveled. If crying baby can control a motor's velocity and bring it to zero at the proper time, theoretically he can control the position of the mechanism driven by the motor.

It is possible to create an analog signal using a PWM output. The output simply turns on/off/on/off... at some fixed frequency set by the programmer. By varying the percentage of that fixed frequency that the output is on, you can set the average voltage level. At 100 percent on, the voltage level is the same as the DC voltage being switched. At 50 percent on time, the average voltage is 50 percent of the switched voltage.

Crying baby can program the PLC to control the on-time percentage to create the changes needed in the voltage and feed this to the velocity reference input of the VFD. Just be careful not to exceed the maximum voltage. If the VFD wants a maximum of 10 volts, and the PWM output is switching 24 volts, then don't exceed 41.67% on-time.

Without feedback, this approach will not be very accurate or repeatable.
 
I just have to ask this...

Is this an educational or hypothetical question? or are you actually planning on using this 'technique' in a real application?

If it's a real application, I'd definately use an AC Drive (Doing what it is DESIGNED to do), and a PLC with an analog output (doing what it is DESIGNED to do). If your heart is set on PWM for some reason, then use a stepper motor, and a stepper-motor drive that accepts PWM inputs (Gekko and others make very inexpensive stepper drives like this).

thank u for yr respond,

no this is not a hypothetical qustion, its for real application.

no . not allowed to purchase any helping drives such as vfd's only


Do you have a clue to what you are doing? Do you have any concept on how to control a VFD?

I think you need to study ALOT more before trying an endeavor of this magnitude.

NOTE: In most cases I am one of the most willing to assist but in this case I do not believe you have studied or learned enough in this area

thank u for ur reply

i m trying to do crude a motion control on a acmotor, 3pahse,

at first i thought it was just coding ladders, but then, it turns out implicitly, many constraints for me to forsee how it will work just yet.


Well, I have to ask this...

What PLC can provide an accurate PWM singnal? What drives accept a PWM signal as a reference? Why bother?

Cry Baby, for all practical purposes FORGET the PWM idea, and tell us about your application so we can stear you in the proper direction. What do you want your motor to do?

thank u elevmike,

i summarise my application as follows;

this application is to deal with induction motor-inverter fed control in 1 package design using PLC.
it require a switch mode inverter,

outcome= obtain a simple outcome result of speed, position and fast brake control for the induction drive...




I think I understand what Crying baby is trying to do. Maybe he/she can verify if I'm right.

First, the intent is to create a crude motion controller using an inexpensive GE Fanuc Micro PLC. The PLC does not have analog output capabilities, but it does have a DC output that can be configured for PWM.

When you make a graph of velocity on the vertical axis and time on the horizontal axis, the area between the line that represents velocity and the horizontal axis is mathematically equal to the distance traveled. If crying baby can control a motor's velocity and bring it to zero at the proper time, theoretically he can control the position of the mechanism driven by the motor.

It is possible to create an analog signal using a PWM output. The output simply turns on/off/on/off... at some fixed frequency set by the programmer. By varying the percentage of that fixed frequency that the output is on, you can set the average voltage level. At 100 percent on, the voltage level is the same as the DC voltage being switched. At 50 percent on time, the average voltage is 50 percent of the switched voltage.

Crying baby can program the PLC to control the on-time percentage to create the changes needed in the voltage and feed this to the velocity reference input of the VFD. Just be careful not to exceed the maximum voltage. If the VFD wants a maximum of 10 volts, and the PWM output is switching 24 volts, then don't exceed 41.67% on-time.

Without feedback, this approach will not be very accurate or repeatable.

thank u steve,

... at last, some1 understands me .. phew..

no i cant use VFD. only PLC, inverter, and a motor. and maby some safety circuits..

may i recall the outcome again,

outcome= obtain a simple outcome result of speed, position and fast brake control for the induction
 
... at last, some1 understands me .. phew..

no i cant use VFD. only PLC, inverter, and a motor. and maby some safety circuits..

may i recall the outcome again,

outcome= obtain a simple outcome result of speed, position and fast brake control for the induction


It appears that there is only one difference between what Steve said and what crying_baby wants...

...Steve is talking about developing a signal which is then applied to a freq-drive which then controls a motor...

...crying_baby indicates relief that someone finally understands... he then goes on to indicate that he wants to apply the PWM signal directly to the motor...

...sounds like we're back at square-one.
 
reply

forgive me for my careless ,

the inverter i was referring to all this while is just shown in picture. its a dc to ac inverter, it isa 3phase, three leg, voltage sourseswitch mode inverter. it can supply a 3phase ac motor load.
 

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