Inductive Automation Rant

[curlyandshemp]

That's funny, because I though that was the story of Inductive Automation.
Didn't they start as an Integrator, frustrated with the big SCADA companies, and then created their own SCADA?

Fact: software development is expensive.
Updating and fixing software over many years is REALLY expensive.
It doesn't surprise me that they are finding new ways to get more money.

I would lay it out plain and simple for IA:
(1) patch 7.6 for free
(2) or, give us 7.7 for free
The big SCADA vendors would do either one.

EDIT: If you want to step up the heat, email them a link to this thread. This forum loves IA; they need to return the favour.
Maybe even this one too
http://www.plctalk.net/qanda/showthread.php?t=102683

They have a member in IA Support who lurk on this forum. I have been working with IA ever since Ignition V7.1, and now the training and development team well.

I am seeing IA transform into the type of company that they used to hate.

 

[diat150]

They have a member in IA Support who lurk on this forum. I have been working with IA ever since Ignition V7.1, and now the training and development team well.

I am seeing IA transform into the type of company that they used to hate.

Ill be surprised if the owner doesnt sell at some point in the near future. Kepware sold for over 100 million. I wouldnt blame him one bit because I know if I could cash out like that I would.

 

[curlyandshemp]

Ill be surprised if the owner doesnt sell at some point in the near future. Kepware sold for over 100 million. I wouldnt blame him one bit because I know if I could cash out like that I would.

Steve Hechtman always stated he will never sell, he is having too much fun.

 

[DBLD99]

I have been working with IA since Factory PMI / SQL days not to long ago.

I also have seen a change with the support as of late. Really dislike that they don't do hotfixes. Found a bug in the new reporting module and was basically told that the fix won't be until 7.2 - we had to wait for over 5 months for the fix.

 

[diat150]

I have been working with IA since Factory PMI / SQL days not to long ago.

I also have seen a change with the support as of late. Really dislike that they don't do hotfixes. Found a bug in the new reporting module and was basically told that the fix won't be until 7.2 - we had to wait for over 5 months for the fix.

I also dislike the fact that participation on the forum is almost 0 from the IA staff now. It was one of the main reasons why I liked their support. Used to be the developers chimed in often along with other support persons to help solve issues. now it is really just a few of the long time users.

 

[curlyandshemp]

I also dislike the fact that participation on the forum is almost 0 from the IA staff now. It was one of the main reasons why I liked their support. Used to be the developers chimed in often along with other support persons to help solve issues. now it is really just a few of the long time users.

Kathy Applebaum usually answers right away. I find lately that Kevin, Colby and Carl show up in spurts, no activity for weeks, then a flurry of responses in a short time.

 

[Paullys50]

Steve Hechtman always stated he will never sell, he is having too much fun.

Of course that is what any business will say, don't want to scare off your consumers Every business is for sale, just have to hit the number. However, I do like the fact that Steve is "one of us". A 5 gallon bucket isn't a stranger to his rear end. I think his passion for automation and Ignition are a huge intangible that only he can measure. But anything can change at any moment.

I'm going to caulk things up to "growing pains". I think Ignition has matured to a point where it is a viable option in many large manufacturing businesses and sites. I think the shifting is due to changes in priority, not to say that support isn't a priority, but "growing pains" usually means your resources (people with knowledge) are limited, and you have no choice but compromise and push through until you can grow your resources.

 

[V0N_hydro]

We haven't used ignition for a project yet, but based on the positive posts on this forum we are/were going to try it the next time we get a project that isn't hard spec'd to one of the big names.

How is it possible to be stuck on a release that isn't an LTS release? If I have the misfortune of buying a version that doesn't become LTS shouldn't they upgrade me to the LTS version? Or when I buy I should get to choose the existing LTS version or the latest one that will not be LTS.

Once I am on the LTS, I see 7.7 LTS support ends in 2019, I would expect that software to keep working until 2019. If I discover a bug during the initial commissioning of the HMI that prevents it from working properly and it isn't going to be fixed, I'd ask for a refund and use a different product. Discovering bugs and things that don't work as advertised, or as required, is part of the risk of using a new platform, new software or new features in software, and why it is often easier to stick with the old version, or the legacy monstrosity, even when the new shiny version is out.

Definitely one of the reasons we are avoiding wonderware is being tired of paying for support when some years all of our projects are hard spec'd to other vendors.

Is it pretty much necessary to buy Ignition support because there is a never ending stream of small issues, because it is a relatively new and half baked product, or once it is up and working it is good forever and a day? I don't want to run the latest version of anybody's software until it has had a good year and a few point releases to get the bugs out.

Citect can be a major pain in the ***, but once it is going it seems to be good forever.

 

[Paullys50]

Is it pretty much necessary to buy Ignition support because there is a never ending stream of small issues, because it is a relatively new and half baked product, or once it is up and working it is good forever and a day? I don't want to run the latest version of anybody's software until it has had a good year and a few point releases to get the bugs out.

It's far from half-baked, for such a small team they have an incredible product, but just like everyone else there are bugs in such a complex product. I've had tech calls with the 'big boys' telling me not to use a feature because it didn't work quite right or was problematic or to buy a different license type because the *cough*Intouch view license*cough* stripped features and made for "hokey" configurations. I remember that LTS is fairly new, however I'd be curious to know why 7.6 doesn't have LTS but 7.5 does. My first project was using 7.7 so I don't know the history.

Kepware has comm issues at times too, but more of a Microsoft dcom issue than their own. Regardless still causes a headaches in the industrial world and Microsoft probably isn't doing much about it.

Most should be purchasing support to keep it updated year after year rather than the traditional "set it and forget it" mentality of years gone by. Integrators get free tech support so it's not much of an issue there. It's really about taking the best approach for an integrator to continually support an end user, or an end user taking ownership of their system, and properly funding things like support rather than ignoring it.

In this specific instance, I hope IA works works with curly, he's an avid supporter of their product and this is a day 1 issue that hasn't been resolved.

 

[kherron]

What's the issue you're having?

 

[Tark]

I think it's unfortunate that Curly's rant has given the impression that Inductive Automation is making customers pay for bug fixes, that's just not the case.

Ignition is released in version numbers in the format of MajorVersion.PlatformCoordination.MinorVersion. You purchase a license based on the MajorVersion.PlatformCoordination number. So far there have been 7.2, 7.3, 7.4, 7.5, 7.6, 7.7, and currently 7.8. The MinorVersion numbers are bug fixes and added functionality to the MajorVersion.PlatformCoordination. So with 7.8, 7.8.0 is the original release, 7.8.1 is the first MinorVersion, 7.8.2 is the second MinorVersion. MinorVersion updates are always free, so Inductive Automation is not making customers pay for bug fixes within your version, you're even getting added functionality within your version.

Long-Term Support is something they added a few years ago and is designed to continue to support certain version numbers for a period of 5 years. LTS versions are being done around every two years, so 7.5 is LTS, 7.6 is not, 7.7 is LTS, 7.8 is not, 7.9 should be.

Here's a breakdown of Ignition's releases -
LTS 7.5.0 original release June 2012, current version 7.5.14 released Dec 2015 - 43 months of updates so far, updates should continue until June 2017.
7.6.0 original release May 2013, current version 7.6.7 released July 2014 - 14 months of updates.
LTS 7.7.0 original release July 2014, current version 7.7.8 released April 2016 - 22 months of updates so far, updates should continue until July 2019.
7.8.0 original release Oct. 2015, current version 7.8.2 released March 2016 - I would guess updates will continue until the next version is released.

They offer Total Care and Basic Care support contracts, both offer free upgrades to software updates, e.g. you purchased 7.6 and have a support contract you can upgrade to 7.7 or 7.8 if you wish. These software updates are considered major updates.

Now the part I'm a bit fuzzy about is the LTS support. They say only valid Total Care Support Contract customers may receive support for the use of an LTS version. So I don't know if that means that if you don't have a Total Care Support Contract you don't get support but do have access to the MinorVersion updates or what.

For my customer's some opt for no support contract, they are fine with being locked into the version they purchase. Others go with the Basic Care support contract since they want to be able to upgrade to the latest version of Ignition but don't need tech support because they rely on me for that.

As always, don't rely strictly on my understanding, talk to an account rep to get all the details.

As for Curly's issue I'm on the fence. I'm wondering if this is related to the Allen Bradley Firmware v20/21 where there were issues with the Ignition OPC driver. I don't do much AB stuff, so I didn't pay much attention to the issues, but my understanding is Inductive Automation did a lot of work on that driver to update it. But the reason I'm on the fence is - If you've been having issues with the driver for 2 years, why not go with another option? Why wait 2 years for Inductive Automation to fix the bug?

 

[curlyandshemp]

What's the issue you're having?

Is this Kevin?

If so , send me a PM and I can tell you my tale of woe and the customer's name

 

[Paullys50]

Is this Kevin?

'Twas my first thought.