Long term Beckhoff or other Windows based PAC?

[einnh]

Has anyone used Beckhoff or any other Windows based PAC long term (life and run time?). I'm wondering how long Windows embedded can run continuously reliably.

 

[twocozz]

We have done lots of control in the past with Windows Embedded (from old PC104 to new IPC's) and we have found the OS is pretty much bullet proof. Some of the units in the field are now over 10 years old (without a problem). Just don't be cheap on the hardware. The programs have mainly been bespoke (although we do have a coupe of SoftPlc's on a couple of them).

 

[einnh]

Thank you,

We have a few Beckhoff units here that we bought for demo/trial purposes but have only deployed AB CLX devices to our commercial and government clients. More and more of our government clients have been asking for Windows based controllers because of security concerns (I don't 100% follow the logic)

 

[JesperMP]

Siemens is going big this route.
They have an IPC in S7-1512SP format (S7 1515SP open controller) which has a virtualised Softcontroller for the PLC part, and a virtualised Windows 7 Embedded for the non-PLC part. The two are so separated from each other that you can shut down one side and it wont affact the other, including separate communication ports.
We are looking at it at the moment with very interested eyes. Also ..... not very expensive !
They are also releasing new versions of IPC227 and IPC427 that are very interesting.

 

[einnh]

Siemens is going big this route.
They have an IPC in S7-1512SP format (S7 1515SP open controller) which has a virtualised Softcontroller for the PLC part, and a virtualised Windows 7 Embedded for the non-PLC part. The two are so separated from each other that you can shut down one side and it wont affact the other, including separate communication ports.
We are looking at it at the moment with very interested eyes. Also ..... not very expensive !
They are also releasing new versions of IPC227 and IPC427 that are very interesting.

The ARM based Beckhoff units are in the <$1000 range with the IO units we need. Significantly than the L18 CLX units we have been using.

 

[LadderLogic]

(I don't 100% follow the logic)

I guess they think they can control security on Windows since they already know how. The thing is, after Stuxnet has been outed, no one can be completely sure that a proprietary OS on a PLC cannot be tampered with anymore. Of course, an IT department cannot control a proprietary OS.

 

[Archie]

In my opinion the definition of PC based by Beckhoff can be misleading. I think when the majority of people hear the term PC-Based control, they immediately think of a PC running Windows NT/2000/XP/7/8/10. Beckhoff will also agree with this. However, in Beckhoff terms this also extends to an embedded control running Windows CE even without an option to connect any kind of monitor mouse or keyboard. For example the CX8090.

Windows CE is a completely different operating system from the typical desktop OS that we are all familiar with. CE is designed for embedded systems and can run as a real-time OS. You cannot load your typical PC applications onto CE nor can you play solitaire. Which means you cannot even load your favorite anti-virus software. To my knowledge CE is not a threat for any viruses.

So the question is then, can a Windows CE based PLC be considered a PC based controller? If you answer yes, then consider an Allen Bradley ControlLogix that runs the VxWorks operating system. That OS is capable of supporting a monitor, keyboard, and mouse. Does it then make the ControlLogix a PC based PLC? But wait a minute, the ControlLogix is not based on an Intel chip. Ok, so nor is the CX8090. So in my opinion, controllers such as the CX8090 are no different than a ControlLogix, even though Beckhoff will say it is PC Based control.


So now that I went off on a tangent, I will answer your question..... My first Beckhoff system was a large system that ran on server hardware with RAID 1 drives, ECC memory, etc. That system ran for almost 15 years before it was decommissioned. After that I did one more PC based system that operated for about 5 years.

Those were my only 2 systems that were based on traditional PC hardware. After those systems, I began to think, what really is the benefit? It wasn't cost saving. The cost of a TwinCAT software license to run on a PC was more than buying a CX controller with a license already on it. After I put all of the pros and cons together, I decided PC based controls running on traditional PC hardware had no advantages. From there on all of my Beckhoff systems I built were based on a CX controller with the CE OS. When an HMI was required, a panel PC was added to the system.

IT may think a PC based system can be made more secure, but that is not so. Do you think Norton has accommodations to protect the TwinCAT service? My guess is most likely not. So whether the PLC runs on a PC or on dedicated hardware, it is up to IT to protect the threats from getting in the door, not trying to keep it from getting to the hardware of the PLC.

 

[einnh]

I disagree with parts of your statements regarding CE. You can install software in the CE environment but it needs to be put into the boot image so that it knows to startup. It is not your normal installation process.

 

[Archie]

I disagree with parts of your statements regarding CE. You can install software in the CE environment but it needs to be put into the boot image so that it knows to startup. It is not your normal installation process.

Hence the keyword "typical PC application" in which I am referring to applications like games or spyware/virus infected utilities that people would randomly install on a PC.

Software that is installed on CE is almost always a custom application written specific for that embedded application not something downloaded from the internet or purchased from a retailer.