OK.. wheres the money at?

[carwashblues]

Thanks Mickey, on a non technical note, you wouldnt happen to be living the good life in sunny Palmdale, not a worry in the world having retired on your lucrative income (without the massive hit a lot of 401ks took) from being an instrument tech? lol.

None of my business of course, just kidding. I guess it depends on cost of living, but 20 dollars an hour still sounds like darn good money to me. I left Cali myself way back in 1990 working at a General Dynamics plant in Pomona making 13.34 an hour doing component level repair on 75k computerized test stations. Thats in a union job after 2 raises.(full bennies and no co-pay in those days) I paid 5-600 dollar rent and these werent really luxury apartments, or that big.

It took at least 500 bucks a month to live in non-gang controlled areas! After paying other bills, I was not exactly rolling in cash.

Maybe Im just getting old but dang, 100k for a cush job in Thailand programming motors to turn off when a limit switch is closed sounds really good! Thats gotta be easier than a lunar landing! Im not married so guys, Im going to become a PLC guru, the ultimate authority on all things PLC or at least convince someone I am! lol.

 

[carwashblues]

Bob, thanks for being an old feller of 67 to my 49 years! Im just a youngster!lol. I certainly get your drift. There seems to still be room for old school guys who can actually think beyond asinine textbooks and get something going the first time! I would be humiliated and gladly fix something for free if I charged someone money to repair something and it came back. For contrast, a modern auto dealerships service dept has no such qualms and can legally charge you for part after part that their supposed factory trained techs have installed that didnt fix anything. Dont pay and they keep your car. Been there done that.

Newer generations are too spoiled and are "dumbing down" in spite of the information age imo. Of course thats what my Grandpa thought of my generation too!

Ive fixed problems degreed engineers just lived with because they were hard to diagnose. I lacked the authority to put in a TPCRA (change request) so I told the engineers the actual solution. They jumped on it and grabbed the glory no less! No big deal, the glory didnt make you a dime more, and I was drinking buddies with the engineers anyway. A lot of people just dont appreciate how easy it is to slide thru college and still be so ineffective.

Academia would have the world believe that 4 year degrees are required to accomplish things, I think a lot of process engineers making a lot more than a lot of graduates(who are asking "want fries with that") proves otherwise.

God knows if they could outsource or automate (the automators lol) the job the factories would have long since done so,imo.

Thanks for your feedback it was very valuable and cut thru the ****.

 

[geniusintraining]

I have a lot of years (67 tomorrow) .

Happy B-Day Bob

------------------------------------------------------------

So wheres the big bucks?

You can find it anywhere... the last real job I had thought about out sourcing the support/maintenance and they tried it with temps but fell flat, so they uped the wages to try and hire better talent, the money was great but the hrs would kill you, then the new plant mananger put a stop to the OT

Now that I have been on my own for a few years (supplies and support) I have found that machine design and then support is the money, but it also takes a lot to get into it, not only the talent that you have but money to build something that the customer will be happy with.

I got a call to a plant that had a HMI go out, it was a Omron (gray screen nothing special) I priced one for 700.00 the program was still loaded in it but the screen got wet and you could not see it anymore.... by the time I got off the phone with the price they (the end user) told me that "we just ordered one from the OEM"... ok so I looked another job they had to quote and then left, the next day they had me come back, the OEM loaded the wrong program so they wanted me to switch the programs from the old HMI to the new... I asked them how much they paid for the HMI (with the wrong program) "a little over 4k" they said that was 3,300.00 profit to load the wrong program, to me that was a little much, that was the same that they charged to develop the program the first time and had a few less hrs in the job

Newer generations are too spoiled and are "dumbing down" in spite of the information age imo

OR to lasy and want everything handed to them

 

[Rube]

I have a lot of years (67 tomorrow) of control system design, building control systems, writing software to make it work and then commissioning behind me. The great thing is I am still learning every day. Mind is still 20 but the body objects violently to that supposition.
The big dough in the next few years will be for controls guys that do what I do. Wish I was 20 years younger - would make lots more bucks in a few years time when there are virtually no controls people left.

I turn 50 in January and I feel 30 so I'm with you there Bob. I also agree that the money should go up a bit in the next few years for controls people but it will likely take that "useless piece of paper" to get hired on by that time. That's one of the reasons I went out on my own with Angus--it won't be long before I'm too old to get hired without a degree!

Happy Birthday, Sir!

 

[gas]

Opinion here.
I started in my Dad’s shop when I was 10 yrs old before child labor and OSHA. That was in 1954.
Many career changes later I teach Industrial Maintenance and with some very smart others do Manufacturing excellence events.
This thread appears to be a “what’s in it for me” discussion.
When I was a Maintenance Manager I had a line of folks out the door and around the block that were pretty good at fixing stuff.
If you think that you are going to get rich by saving the company money you will be very disappointed.
I tell my students that there is only one rule to remember:
You exist at your employment not to sweep the floor, answer the phone or fix stuff but ONLY to put money in the owners pocket.
You do that by knowing the product and knowing how EVERYTHING works.
Manufacturing is like bowling…If you miss a strike that opportunity is gone forever.
If a company invests in a machine or a process they expect revenues from it ALL the time. If it is not producing for an hour or a day that opportunity for revenue is gone forever. However; the costs and overhead obviously continue. If a machine is down while you are in the back room repairing a component and “saving the company money” the company is really loosing big money.
There are many people that can pound out PLC code. Very few know how the inside of a hydraulic pump works, or a chemical reactor. PLCs only control those things so you better know what you are controlling and how they work.

 

[harryting]

To paraphrase an old saying:

"IT'S THE PROCESS, DUMMIE"

You can hire any code monkey to code PLC/Fortran/C/ect... IF you can provide a complete process description. Like gas said, you can't program something if you don't understand the process.

I remember someone post a topic asking for code for a "Hot Dog Machine" and my question is, "how do you want the hot dog to be made?"

The money is at the top level, where it should be. My number here may be a little off, but you will get the idea:

Engineering manager - $120-$150k
Advance process control engr - $110k+
Control System Engineer - $70-90k
Plc Ladder monkey - $35-$50k

btw, there's no such thing as PLC guru. It's like saying someone is a multimeter or Microsoft Word Guru.

 

[yam785]

Money is nothing, if you don't love what you do.

I have progressed from working in production, stuffing stuff in a bag, to starting my own business within 25 years. While I do make decent money, it is not nearly as gratifying, as loving what I do for a living.

I only do Automation type work for one industrial company. They are loyal to me, and I am loyal to them. The rest of the time I can be doing anything from wiring receptacles, to working on computers, boats, RV's, whatever.

I figure I'm already rich, because I love getting up, and going to work.

Just my two cents

 

[bulletin blues]

Overtime

 

[harryting]

You get paid OVERTIME?!!?

 

[PdP]

In Africa you could earn up to $140K working for a company, depends on your experience and knowledge. Knowledge you can find in books at the university, or in the field of practice. Practice makes perfect, so does studying & understanding a bit of engineering, I believe in both.

You could also earn $300K if you own a small company, delivering quality products and service agreements.

In South Africa, we used to have a mentorship in engineering. This has been relegated to lower importance. Huge mistake for RSA.

Designing, programming & commissioning PLC's is one of the aspects. Understanding the process on the manufacturing side, makes it really very easy to implement really solid solutions to the client. That's why chemical engineers are at the top of industrial automation (so it's been said), only because they understand the process.

So, programming PLC's is not easy. This could become very complicated. A good chemical engineer is not to say a good system designer, unless he has both capabilities. Not necessarily on paper.

 

[carwashblues]

Thanks for the input guys. Gas, I was suspecting things were about like you described. Its great to hear it from a professional who knows the score. With all the PLC stuff readily available online it stands to reason that simply programming ladder logic isnt where the money is at.

You would have to know all about the machines that make the product, and exactly how a product gets made, some chemistry, (like pdp pointed out) and other things no doubt. To intelligently diagnose any system, you have to know exactly how every thing in the system is supposed to work. That means not just the key components but every last detail. I think a lot of people just work with a sort of rough block diagram of a system in their head, but the more detailed the knowledge the merrier.

Once I can snag a job in a plant, one of the first things I will do is write down equipment model #s and manufactors, of all the gear so I can research things online at home. In addition I would want to go thru any service manuals and diagrams I could get my paws on at work. If the pages arent greasy, I know I have the chance to know things more in depth than others.

My experience working in a lot of shops with a lot of techs in my past line of work, was that abilities and skills varied quite a bit. Every shop tended to have at least one "guru", a bunch of average types and one or two complete screw-ups. "Gurus" were really just people who tried harder. Since they not only fixed their gear but were constantly having to assist others, and answer constant questions all day, they developed a lot of knowledge and skills. Most others just knew things enough to get by and came to depend on the guru whenever they got stuck.

I evolved into a guru of sorts at General Dynamics, but it didnt pay any more or get much recognition. Seniority determined pay and gurus couldnt hardly take a smoke break because some other guy making more money was asking them what was wrong with a station they were working on.

Im glad the automation industry rewards competence and abilities more than union jobs for govt contractors. I am a driven type personality and I have to know how everything works and not the little 5 minute version I would get on the job from an experienced hand either. I want the service manual and drawings and parts lists and every thing ever written on all the equipment.

 

[diat150]

I think the key to making the big bucks is being very flexible.

bad thing is that just tales time, and some people pick it up faster than others. theres a lot to learn to be a competent automation professional. you have alot of different flavors of plc's, alot of different operator interfaces, alot of different scada packages. then you have all of the different communications options, including proprietary stuff for certain manufacturers. and that not even getting into the various end devices like flowmeters and transmitters and such.

in my line of work, with all of the mergers and acquisitions, you are always having to deal with different equipment. one day I might be working on a controllogix and the next day ill be fooling with an ancient square d plc. you just neever know. once you do know, thats where you can be in a position to make the big bucks.

so Id say if you can get an entry level position, jump on it and work hard to learn as much as you can about everything. knowing plc's is great, but there is so much more to know in the automation field.

 

[tomalbright]

Late chime-in!

carwashblues, (thanks Diat!) you might find that Louisiana has the answers you need, but not where you need them. I have 26 years of PLC experience - started with Allen Bradley, and stayed with that for 20 years... after some job changes, I ended up learning how to work with RSView, wonderware, GE PLCs and HMIs, Symax, and other strange and forgotten PLCs and systems.

Now I'll share a secret - I only went to training on AB, and that was early on. The secret is, that each manufacturer has their own "style" of how they do things. Once you understand a system like AB, and then besides just knowing how to program logic, you can understand what you want to DO with a system and then you're able to find a way. Understanding the process is key. There's a "knack" or intuition that you get when you work on these systems, and have a feel for what they do or CAN do. I worked once in an engineering department, and, often after getting the specs on a program, I asked the operators "how would you operate this?". This gives a perspective that most engineers don't have. I learned from the instruments up, and knowing instrumentation is a real need for successful PLC programming.

Another secret - check offshore. I've been offshore for about 6 years now. My current job is instrument tech, and when you talked about replace or repair, it's really funny, because you can't always run to the store. Sometimes you gotta make do. I've done all kinds of repairs out here, including board repair when it has to be done. Surprise - I am still programming PLCs and HMIs, not full time, but since I can do the job, they let me instead of hiring out! It's a good environment to learn in.

If you look at offshore jobs, you can get on as an instrument tech. A modern (last 15-20 years! Ha!) platform will usually have some PLC systems, and you can watch and learn with those. Benefit - you only work half the year. It's one reason I'm staying offshore.

Age? I'm 51. Everyday is a new day. I'm working with people my age and older, and some younger than my own kids. There's a place if you look. Moneywise, it's pretty darn good. If I actually did any Real Work on my weeks off, I would easily break the 100K barrier with no problem.

Check it out!

 

[diat150]

there is a real shortage of good techs in the offshore industry. you basically cannot find an experienced one without paying an arm and a leg.

 

[Rube]

there is a real shortage of good techs in the offshore industry. you basically cannot find an experienced one without paying an arm and a leg.

After the BP deal do you really want an UNexperienced tech?

Just kidding--I know the BP thing was not a tech's fault...


...was it?

A long time ago I worked with my dad's company on restaurant equipment. He would not hire anyone with that experience. He wanted to train them to do it his way and it worked. We quickly became the leading service company in town and stayed that way until his health beat him down. Sometimes OJT is the best way.

CWB will find that something he wants to do and I hope he shares that with us when he does.