OLD GEEZER is BACK on SILO SIM

promanen

Member
Join Date
Nov 2005
Location
Texas
Posts
27
Having succesfully completed the DOOR SIM and putting my flashing bit on the AJAR Light so it makes sense when I push the PB's I thought I'd go onto the SILO Simulator...I've heard that Suicide is Painless , PLC programming is not.

On one page I have two ladders : Rewrite and Silo in Progress
One ladder allows the box to fly right by , you have to time the STOP PB to fill the box , then push START PB and the next box flies down the line
The bottom drawing Automatically STOPS the box , fills it ..BUT...won't budge when you push the START PB.

ANY HELP out there ?
 
Ladder 1 rung 0000
The belt prox sensor input under Stop PB will do nothing. You would have to manually stop the box in position with the prox sensor for the box to fill.
Move the belt prox to the branch under start in series with the motor output contact. This should allow the motor holding circuit to unlatch when running BUT allow the motor to move away from the prox sensor when you need to restart....NOTE: the issue may be how long you have to hold the start button to move the belt away from the prox for it to latch itself. You can experiment here and see what I mean...press the button fast, hold it for 1/2 sec, 1 sec etc, usually if the scan time is short (in milliseconds) then fully depressing the switch is enough time.

Same thing for the second set, move the belt prox input to the rung under Start in series with the motor output contact.

I had to check but I provided that in this thread; http://www.plctalk.net/qanda/showthread.php?t=18698&page=1&pp=15&highlight=geezer

I used Latch and Unlatch for the Full light but it is not needed...not sure now why I did it but I think it was to maintain the light to show you needed to start the system again to fill another box.

All my help is very basic to attempt you over the hump with specific areas that are a problem without actually telling you all the details.
 
Last edited:
Pete,

I will throw in my 2 cents. Ron's method will work. Here is another way which also works, and will allow an easy step into the next exercise, which requires completly automating the conveyor, so that it restarts when the box is full, without touching the pushbutton.

Dividing the motor circuit into "start" and "stop" sections helps to see what needs to be done. Starting on the left side of your Rung 000, first you have a "start", next a "stop" function (the Stop Pushbutton), then another "stop" function, the I:1/3 Belt Prox On. Now you can see that the I:1/3 will open and stop the box when it gets to the Fill Position. In order to get it started again, we must have a "start" function to bypass the I:1/3 contact.

Now, what function do we have that is being finished at this time and can be used to restart the conveyor? This new function needs to be installed in "parallel" with I:1/3. Remember, "start" functions are nearly always parallel, while "stop" functions are in series. So you need something that is changing states at the time that the Box gets full, and it needs to be a contact that will not keep the conveyor from stopping during the initial Box Positioning, but will now restart the conveyor. In other words, you need a contact that is normally open, but closes when the box gets full. Note also that this "start" contact only has to stay on long enough for our "stop" function to re-close (the box to move away from the I:1/3 Belt Prox).
 
Last edited:
Thanks , I caught those start stop repeats later in the day after I walked the dog searching for my hanging tree : )

MY GREATEST COMPLAINT for the academic instructors : My Texas State Technical College text book , Phil's Learn PLC book is that all of them fall short when it comes to creating a complex rung of operations.Not one book shows how to go beyond throwing a light switch simple circuit.

Your statement of " Remember, "start" functions are nearly always parallel, while "stop" functions are in series " Thats priceless information , I searched both books and neither has that information in it.
Many , Many Thanks
I do mean it.

Pete
 
Lancie1 , RSDORAN ,( Don't stop helping , we the underskilled appreciate both of your efforts to JOG us along )

Thanks ever so much with the information. I got the SILO SIM to work in 2 modes of operation. A = continous mode B= Manual Start / Stop

However , Levers A,B,C...well I attached my ladder in another word .doc attachment...
Exercise #3 -- Selectable Mode of Operation

Alter or re-write your program so that the panel mounted Selector switch can be utilized to select one of 3 different modes of operation. The 3 modes shall operate as follows:
  • When the selector switch is in position "A", the system shall operate in the "Continuous" mode of operation. This is the mode of operation which was used in Exercise #1.
  • When the selector switch is in position "B", the system shall operate in the "Manual Restart" mode of operation. This is the mode of operation which was used in Exercise #2.
  • When the selector switch is in position "C", the system shall operate in the "Fill Bypass" mode of operation. In this mode, the boxes will simply move down the conveyor continuously and bypass the fill operation. As in the other modes, the Start and Stop pushbuttons will control the conveyor motion and the Run Lamp will operate as expected. "
Pete
 
Pete what would happen if you stuck a NOT FILL bit --|/|-- with the I: address from the switch into rungs 2 and 3...the rungs that did the filling and turned on full light?

A few thoughts.
Do not over think a problem, keep it simple. In this case you know you can make it run continuous so look at it and see what to do to stop the filling and allow it to keep running?

Do not just start writing a program, write out an I/O list then write what you need to happen...maybe this will help; http://www.patchn.com/b4programming.htm
 
Last edited:
Pete,
Thanks for the kind words. Your thoughts makes my efforts seem worthy.

You are right on about textbooks and school instruciton in general. It is difficult to duplicate real-world problems (and knowledge gained from thos problems) in the classroom and in books.

Before you get totally frustrated..On the seelctor switch, I think of each contact on the selector switch as another "stop" or maybe as a "start inhibit" for a certain parallel branch of the COnveyor Motor Starter. Thinking like that, you should wind up with something like the attached.
 
AH but you are a hard taskmaster...oh the agony you put me thru...I still believe suicide is preferable to PLC programming , I recall the phrase SUICIDE is painless...I mean M*A*S*H still uses it for their theme song.

The part of the problem that I can't visualize on paper or in my mind is the way to connect the three levers A , B , C...I even drew a line diagram and used an H O A Switch to see the function , but when it came to the rungs on the ladder logic...I really got lost.

I think I'll table this for one day , pull back and redraw it on Sat morning while the family is still snoozing.Then maybe I'll see the LIGHT and be able to adjust the inputs on the rung.

Have a G'day and Thanks for the support you and Lancie1 provide we the unqualified.

Pete
 
Pete,

Selector switches may be hard because you may be trying to transfer the entire switch as one piece into the program. That can be a difficult thing to visualize.

On the other hand, I usually just think of the indivudual functions that the switch performs, and ask, "what contacts are actually needed"? For example for a HOA, I know from experience that I only need two contact blocks, one closed for Hand, one closed for Auto. If both are open, well that must be Off! You probaly keep seeing the whole switch, but in a PLC program, you really only need to worry about ONE function of the switch for EACH rung or rung BRANCH. Forget the others, and do one at a time. For example, on the A-B-C selector, start with "C", the so-called "fill bypass" (where the conveyor runs continuously, but no boxes are filled), add a parallel branch with the "C" position contact input, and then ask, "is any other output needed besides the conveyor motor, and is anything else needed to make the conveyor run as described? The answer is NO (for the "C" position)!

Then once "C" position contact of the selector is working, go up to "A", the "continuous fill", where the boxes fill automatically without restarting the conveyor each time. Think of all the input conditions for "A" position to work.

Tip: Remove every input contact from your Run Light output rung (except the Start, Stop, and seal-in). Think in terms of "functions" or uses, rather than in terms of physical equipment. What output functions are needed? Well, we need one to indicate if the system is active (regardless of conveyor motor being on/off). That can be O:2/2, and you only need the Start, Stop, and seal-in to control that. Then we need one to turn on the conveyor as needed. That rung is where all the limiting contacts need to be placed. Remember what I said when you were first starting work on the Silo Simulator? It was that, knowing what was coming up with the selector switch, it would be easier, at the beginning, to set up a "System Run" output O:2/2, and use that as a Start/Stop command for the conveyor output. With a O:2/2 contact as an input on your Conveyor Motor Output O:2/0, things will get a whole lot simpler to visualize. One advantage is that the Stop, Start, and motor seal-in contacts all go away to another rung, and you will have only one "system run" (run light) contact in their place.

A System Run output is sensible in this case. When the selector is set to A Continuous Fill, the graphic screen indicator light O:2/2 should be on to show that the system is running unattended in automatic, even if the conveyor is stopped at the moment. This is a safety feature not mentinoned in the LogixPro exercise, but I think this was the intention. What other reason is there to have two outputs, one for Conveyor Motor, and one for "RUN"? If you use the Conveyor output O:2/0 to turn on the light, it is only ON when the motor is running. This could be misleading in a real-world plant, where an indicator should show if the system is safe (completely off), or not.
 
Last edited:
I read your words , I put inputs and outputs on the rungs but I can’t see the selector switches in any of the lines with a " goto " sequence…I just cannot see it.

This is where I need an instructor with a blackboard or a diagram with the final solution spelled out

For I have been told but I have never been shown , not even once.

Pete
 
Pete,

You really got off to a bad start. It would be possible to do it the way you are working, but it would take Rube Golberg to explain how it works. You are still trying to solve the problem the hard way. Forget what you have done and start over. This time, get off on the right foot. Do the RUN LIGHT O:2/2 first, and do it like this:
 
| (SYSTEM RUN) |
| STOP PB START PB RUN LIGHT |
| I:1/1 I:1/0 O:2/2 |
|----||------+---||---+-------( )-----|
| | | |
| | O:2/2 | |
| +---||---+ |



That is absolutely ALL you need for Output O:2/2. It kind of makes that rung look easy. The conveyor motor gets a lot easier too.

Once you get that, then go back to Rung 000, Output O:2/0 Conveyor Motor. Add the Output on the far right, but forget the Start and Stop Pushbuttons that you had in there before. You will not need them again. You have took care off them already. Instead of a STOP pushbutton, use your new O:2/2 as a Stop and Start input contact on Rung 000 in the very first slot to the right of the rung number. Once that is in, things should get a lot easier.

Now all you have to do is, to the right of the new "RUN LIGHT" XIC contact, put in 3 parallel rung branches, one for each of the 3 selector switch positions A, B, and C. Then add an XIC contact for each of the positions (I:1/5, I:1/6, I:1/7) To the right of the 3 new selector switch contacts, now add all the conditions for each one. (Hint: the "C" position I:1/7 is done, it needs nothing else!) I will stop here and let you work on it some more. Let me know if you get fed up and just want me to post the solution!
 
Not Yet , Oh No , NOT YET...don't post the solution...I gave the rope away to a neighbor to tie down his Christmas Tree...So since I can't hang myself...let me give it one more go.

Pete
 

Similar Topics

Have not programmed a PLC in 5 years and the RUSTY NAILS are surfacing. Practicing on my Logix Pro simulator ,while awaiting the CD to arrive for...
Replies
35
Views
13,461
I have an old Sentry Palletizer (S/O Number 3007 / Serial Number 1172) that has lost its program as the backup battery died years ago. I can...
Replies
0
Views
88
This is admittedly a pretty obscure problem, but maybe someone else has run into it, or at least something similar. For reasons I won't get into...
Replies
3
Views
144
Does Rockwell still offer reset codes for old school Master Disk floppy's? In a bind and need to reset the activation disk soon and to be pointed...
Replies
9
Views
244
Has anyone found a way to convert/replace/update the firmware on old Parker TS80xx series HMIs (i.e. TS8010, TS8006, etc) to accept Crimson...
Replies
0
Views
105
Back
Top Bottom