Pneumatics in an electrical control panel

[mflaugh]

I've found that the Industrial Machinery Standard is VERY restrictive and can be difficult to comply with... But what customers demand, customers get...

Sorry Norm, I was using the 2002 Edition. Shows you how often I need to apply this standard

 

[bce123]

http://www.omega.com/ppt/pptsc.asp?ref=VM10_Series&ttID=VM10_Series&Nav=
IT SEEMS THERE ARE SOME APPLES IN WITH OUR ORANGES

 

[leitmotif]

NFPA 79 Standard for Industrial Machinery 12.2.2.2 states that
"Pipelines, tubing or devices for handling air, gases or liquids shall not be located in enclosures or compartments containing electrical control equipment."

An exception is made if they are an integral part of listed equipment and are separated by suitable barriers.

I don't know if that is what they are applying or not, but I know it is becoming a more popular standard.

this is a perfect example of how people get in trouble with codes
LINE 1 Thou Shalt NOT

LINE 2 Except in cases of ,,,,,

Dan Bentler.

 

[fredz0003]

I'm not a panel builder, but I don't recall ever seeing an electrical panel with pneumatics inside the same enclosure. I have seen small enclosures with nothing but pneumatic valves next to an electric cabinet. I am sure the guy has a reason to go against it. I know we wouldnt want pneumatics inside our panels, like said before humidity is a main factor, but to open an ELECTRICAL cabinet just to troubleshoot pneumatic system would be really painful, since we have to dress up, rubber gloves, leather gloves, FR clothing, safety glasses or shield, set perimeters, etc. My two centavos.

 

[leitmotif]

ELECTRICAL cabinet just to troubleshoot pneumatic system would be really painful, since we have to dress up, rubber gloves, leather gloves, FR clothing, safety glasses or shield, set perimeters, etc. My two centavos.

Another darn good observation.
Thank you Fred

Dan Bentler

 

[James Mcquade]

I strongly urge you to not do this and here's why:

1. we had an airline bust over the weekend and dump 6 inches of water into the panel. if it weren't for the fact that someone failed to properly tighten the door hinges, the panel would have been completely under water.

2. the oil from the plant air and lubricator will create an oil mist in the panel and it will cover everything and gets into everything. i have already had to replace an hmi because of this and its a mess to work on the panel.

regards,
james

 

[fredz0003]

1. we had an airline bust over the weekend and dump 6 inches of water into the panel.

6 inches of water, do you guys have a water separator? I mean is an airline yes it will have moisture but 6 inches it seems like a water hose to me.

 

[Paullys50]

Interesting, curious if this is a new development. If you do work in food/dairy industry you'll see this a lot. Electrical and pneumatic in the same enclosure. Typically you'll see the remote IO rack, directly wired to solenoid valves in the panel. the air lines out of the panel to valves.

I've had customers request it be separated, then they complain about the added costs to do so.

It does get messy over a long period, I've been in cabinets with this setup that have been in place for 20 years and the oil/water that gets into the air takes it's toll. I don't think it's a great practice to do it, but I also rarely design panels. However, if it's something new, then it's good to be aware of it. My last employer stated we didn't follow NFPA 79 to the tee for some reason or another, I didn't care to listen more that day...

 

[The Plc Kid]

Hello,

We had a customer this week tell us that there is a regulation against putting pneumatic devices in the same panel as electrical unless the electrical devices are rated IP65. Of course, they didn't cite the reference.

I know there are many places that have their own internal regulations about what can and cannot be inside a control panel but I have never heard of such a regulation from a major standards organization.

Does anyone have a reference to any industry standards regarding the inclusion or prohibition of pneumatics in an electrical control panel?

Thanks

If that is true then I guess I have to get rid of all these medium voltage water cooled drives I have. Drive MFG better stop making them also.

 

[bce123]

iT IS ALSO COMMON PRACTICE IN INDUCTION HEATING EQUIPMENT CONTROL PANELS
I cannot recall ever seeing a induction heating system without water cooling in it

 

[ndzied1]

Typically you'll see the remote IO rack, directly wired to solenoid valves in the panel. the air lines out of the panel to valves.

That is mostly what we have done in the past. We have also done separate panels for electrical and pneumatic as well as just mounting the valves on the outside of the enclosure. Did you know that there is hardware that is UL type rated so when you mount the valve manifold to the box you can still rate it UL Type 12?

 

[fredz0003]

My last employer stated we didn't follow NFPA 79 to the tee for some reason or another, I didn't care to listen more that day...

Same with my last employer, NEC copy sitting on his desk collecting dust, cabinets there looked like a darn tornado came thru and forget about schematics they were no good, we basically had to find our way in there. Operators who knew nothing about electricity used to pry open the cabinets and reset motor faults, until a fire started there, it was bad. And sanitation used to spray water everywhere, one time a motor was covered with a plastic bag upside down, full of water.

 

[fredz0003]

I am sure there are many points on this, here's one quote from another site asking the same question, and reinforcing why we don't have pneumatic components,

I worked on a design for an EU customer a few yers ago [French} and their Safety Person made us house the electronics and pneumatics separately. The theory was "Two Energy Sources in the Same Enclosure." A Tech might "Safe" one energy source [the one he's working on and thinking about] but not the other source. We put the pneumatics in a mechanisms area but had to Safety Interlock the cabitet door [there by making it impossible for the Tech to run the machine with the door open unless he had a Magnetic Safety Key].

From the panel building side of view, this might not look like a big deal but it is. Now regarding actual NPFA or NEC and exceptions, you guys are the professionals and should know where to draw the line, and when to cross it.

 

[leitmotif]

If that is true then I guess I have to get rid of all these medium voltage water cooled drives I have. Drive MFG better stop making them also.

What about water cooled motors and generators and or alternators?

Wont mention hydrogen cooled alternators.

Dan Bentler

 

[Phill77]

I use Burkert Airline components regularly, which are designed to be integrated in to your control cabinet PLC IO rack. They're brilliant in my opinion, never had a failure and cuts down on lots of wiring.

http://www.burkert.com/COM/Products/Pneumatics/Valve-units-and-automation-systems/8644.html