The most interesting problem of the last two weeks

allscott,

As I said, I don't recall the original constraints from the original post, and the original post is gone... so, what's a guy to do? I'll have to make assumptions.

I didn't pi$$ you off did I? That was NEVER my intent! As I said, it's all rhetoric! "Sticks and Stones"... ya know? Stand up and make your points!

A solid point can't be argued against! That is the basic law of logic!

So...
 
Mathematically, I thik the true cuve of the steel betwen the stands would be a closely related to the catenary. Catenary is the curve developed by a cable or rope suspended between two supports. In this case it would probably be two halves of a catenary at the beginning and end and another catenary in the middle. The true curve would be an interesting structural calculation, but it would involve more calculus than I've wanted to do for 30 years. I suspect Peter's approximation is sufficiently accurate for "our" purposes.

At any rate, the exact shape of the curve is an intelectual dead end for the purpose of controls. To answer Peter's other questions I would make some simplifying assumptions and do a sensitivity analyisis. For example, assume that the height of the dancer section increases at 1/2 the rate of increase in material length between the rolls (1/2 the change in length on the up side, 1/2 on the down side). Now we are dealing with a "worst case" situation. If we make this case work, then we can handle the real situation readily.

On that worst case basis, simple algebra will answer Peter's questions 2 and 3. These are the critical ones for a controls guy.
 
As I have mentioned and shown, I have worked in the steel industry with steel wire.

What confuses me is the neen to have a "HUMP", the idea in most cases is make the wire feed at the approximate same speed.

Also note: I have not seen motors/drives used with rebar size steel wire that was above 150HP.

NEVER forget about friction.
 
What confuses me is the neen to have a "HUMP", the idea in most cases is make the wire feed at the approximate same speed
I'm a little confused about what is meant by the term "hump" too. In fact if you go into some of your older roller mills they will all be driven off of one motor
 
Also note: I have not seen motors/drives used with rebar size steel wire that was above 150HP.
Oh I have. About 8' in diameter and a gearbox the size of my car. I'll see if I can get the hp of it today
 
TW I was speaking in general, rebar or .5 inch diameter wire does not need large motors. I am ASSUMING , in this case, the steel wire was in thzt range size. This is my experience.
 
Look at a clothes line. It is anchored at each end. The line begins at an angle from one anchor point and ends at the same angle at the other anchor point.

Now, with the image of the clothes line in your mind, invert it. Now it looks more like a trajectory for a cannon shot.

Unless the rollers are angled in such a way to support the end-point angles, there is no way that the shape of the "hump" is going to look like a "...rope suspended between two supports."

It WILL have a definitive S-Curve shape. NO DOUBT ABOUT IT!

Now, why would anyone want to have a "hump" between the two rollers?

I think the answer to that is rather obvious... the purpose of the "hump" is to prevent any significant stretching in the material. Sure, there will be a little bit of surface tension on the outside of the three deflections as the material goes "through the hump". But, if properly controlled, that tension can be minimized.

How can stretching occur if the rollers are suppoed to be traveling at the same speed?

First, the original stipulation was that there were two sets of rollers. That is a Given! We have no choice... that is the spec that we are working under! The first set of rollers was... I think... horizontal, and the second set of rollers was vertical (again, I think. In any case, the two sets were oppositely oriented.).

In either case, again, the answer should be obvious. Controlling the Rotational Velocity of the rollers is a pretty damned straight-forward kinda deal. However, controlling the Linear Velocity of the rollers is not so straight-forward.

As time goes on, things happen... in this case, the "thing" would generally be a changing in the diameter of either the infeed rollers, or the outfeed rollers, or both... for whatever reason.

Oh, sure, some of you say... If the diameter(s) is(are) no longer the same as it was (they were), then it's simply time to clean or replace the rollers!

OK, but what if you are in the middle of a 3-mile run of this stuff? Are you going to let the hot stock just sit there while you clean or replace the roller? Not likely!

And if you let the system run, then the re-bar, which is supposed to meet very strict physical requirements, is being subjected to at least one of the very effects that the requirements are designed to prevent! Namely, "stretching" of the material!

Stretching is NOT the same as Compressing! Duh... Do ya think?

So... in order to keep the material from being stretched (between the two rollers), the Linear Velocities must be held equal. How can this be assured?

As long as the material remains at a horizontal level you can NOT be assured that the linear velocities are the same!

It is only by developing a "hump", and a method to monitor that "hump" that you can be assured that the "gozintas" and the "gozoutas" are equal! That is, that the two Linear Velocities are the same. If both Linear Velocities are the same, then there's absolutely no stretching!

We all know that we can NOT cause both roller sets to have exactly the same Linear Velocity... not exactly... no way... no how!

We can, however, develop a "buffer" that allows us to "fudge around the equal point".

By developing that "buffer" (that "hump") and then trimming the Outfeed Roller velocity, a bit faster or a bit slower, we can maintain the proper relationship between the Infeed Roller Velocity and the Outfeed Roller Velocity.

So... the purpose of the "hump" is to give us the ability to meet the Construction Engineering Specs (as specified by those that specify such things)!

Without the "hump"... we would have no way of knowing that we weren't developing a stretch (a little "Reverse-Logic" in that...)! At least, not a stretch caused by differences in the Linear Velocities of the rollers.

All of that was based on the idea that the Outfeed Roller Linear Velocity would be INCREASED because of an increasing Outfeed Roller diameter, thus causing stretching.

There is also the case where the diameter of the Infeed Roller increases, thus causing excess, and ever increasing, material to exist between the two roller sets.

This might make you think that all you need is to monitor for a "hump" developing because the Infeed Linear Velocity was faster than the Outfeed Linear Velocity... that would be wrong.

In that case, as long as the "hump" is not developed... all you know is that there is not excess material between the two rollers. You do NOT know whether, or not, stretching is occurring!

Having the "hump" is the only way to assure that the material is not being stretched!
 
We all know that we can NOT cause both roller sets to have exactly the same Linear Velocity... not exactly... no way... no how!
Obviously nothing is perfect but some are gear driven.

As for the one I was checking on, 1000 hp all gear driven
 
Those of us that have been around the block more than a few times absolutely recognize that, eventually, a "gear-driven" system, in this specific case, can't help but... either stretch the raw-material between the two rollers, or jam excess raw-material between the two rollers; neither of those cases being acceptable!

NO ONE CAN MAKE TWO MOTORS RUN AT EXACTLY THE SAME ROTATIONAL SPEED, NOR LINEAR SPEED, AT ALL TIMES!

This is the very problem being addressed by this particular thread.

TWControls,
You are ignoring the fact that, in this kind of situation, Linear Velocity RULES! Linear Velocity tends to be subject to wear, slag build-up, and time in general. It is the Linear Velocities that need to be controlled.

I don't care how many horse-power you are using... a thousand HP, a million HP, or even a billion... the issue is the Linear Velocity difference between the two rollers; even if the motors are fractional horse-power!

TW... which of course also looks like TW as in Terry Woods, please quit doing this damned YOU vs. ME thing. It ain't worth it, it ain't worth it for either of us. Let's stick to dealing with honest evaluations of the particular process problem that was posted.

Except, of course, for those posted problems that really deserve a different tack.
 
Now for a simple question...

Not having ever seen one of these things, how are you going to keep the hump standing upright without pushing the infeed or outfeed rollers in the cross-machine direction? If the hump starts to fall over, it's just going to keep falling.

Keith
 
I have lost interest for a while because of the arguing

Keith, the systems I saw had a hydraulic axis that pushed the roll up and applied just a little force to maintain contact and lift the steel. The position of the axis was used to measure the height and it is this position and rate of change in this postion that should be used to compute PART of the refrence speed. Actually, it should be more of a trim. The ratio of the gaps can be used to estimate the speed up of the steel after passing through a stand. This ratio can be considered to be a feed foward and should be able to estmate the speed of the down stream stand. As I said above, the output of the 'hump' PID should just be considered trim. This trim is necessary because no estimate will be perfect. Steel does not just expand along the length. I know steel will expand laterally. I have been told aluminum doesn't as much. I learned that at a startup at Alcoa TN.

Honestly, I don't remember what the mechanics were between the stands at the rebar mill that I visited, but I do know that the metal was NOT extruded. It was rolled through at least 5 stands.
I do not remember one stand being veritical and the other being horizontal. I would bet that there was a horzontal and vertical roll at EACH stand. The metal coming out was traveling about 50 to 80 times faster than the 4x4x16 in billets that were fed to the work rolls and stands.

Tom, you are right. My simple estimate is close enough.

Tom and Terry. It doesn't take any calculus to compute the length along the hump. This is one of the points I want to make.

TWControls, I don't think the temperature will change the answer much because length doesn't change much if the steel was a straight line or a curve. I worked it out using the techniques below.

Now for the answer to question 1.

Forget about the exact curvature of the steel. Lets just say the vertical postion of the steel can be described as a unknown function y(x) where y is the elevation and x is the positon between the stands.

My simple calculation was this.

Code:
[/size][/font][/font]
[/font][font=Helvetica][font=Courier New][size=2]X		  is the distance between stands[/size][/font][/font]
[font=Helvetica][font=Courier New][size=2]N=2		number of segments[/size][/font][/font]
[font=Helvetica][font=Courier New][size=2]dX=X/N	 dX is the horizontal distance in each segment.[/size][/font][/font]
[font=Helvetica][font=Courier New][size=2]Dist = 0   [font=Helvetica][font=Courier New][size=2]Dist is the distance along the curve.[/size][/font][/font]  [/size][/font][/font]
[font=Helvetica][font=Courier New][size=2]For x = dX to X step dX[/size][/font][/font]
[font=Helvetica][font=Courier New][size=2]  Dist=Dist+sqrt(dX^2+(y(x)-y(x-dX))^2)[/size][/font][/font]
[font=Helvetica][font=Courier New][size=2]
My simple calculation divided the distance between the stands into two segments and used Pythagorean's theorem to calculate the distance of the two segments. I then summed them together.
What if N is 4, 10,100 or 1000? Well Tom is right. The distance along the curve is only about 5 mm so this extra work finds that the simple calculation is pretty close and doesn't change much.

This can be solved on a PLC. A Control Logix, S7 or any PLC that can do structured text can do this easily.

Terry, I know you like to do your motion control in the PLC. Would you do this application in a PLC? Remember that you have only about 5 mm of 'slack' and there are at least 5 stands and each one has two PIDs in a cascaded loop. Well?

Hint, what is the fastest time constant you can specifiy on a PLC? Is this fast enough?
 
Given the modified requirements from the Peter's original post I think you may have a chance of doing this in a plc, but not much of a chance. Granted, you can define the required control system in the plc. And, for the sake of argument, we will assume that if you write a minimalist controller with an eye toward optimization AND that you can define a sufficiently short update rate. I don't think you will be able to pump the feedback and commands through the I/O fast enough.

The CLX platform will allow you to specify a periodic task update rate as low as 100 microseconds. A more reasonable value after you figure in overhead and the fact that you will want to do more than just control the hump with the plc is probably 1 millisecond per station. So you will service each station every 5 milliseconds. You won't be able to do too much else in the plc at that type of update rate, though.

We will further assume a 16-bit signed analog output resolution, which I believe is the best you can get with the CLX platform. We will also assume that the speed of 10 meters/second is more realistic than 100 meter/sec so we will use 10. We will use a speed gearing of 11 meters/sec maximum speed to allow for correction.

Given these numbers the best speed resolution you can hope for is 0.33 millimeters/sec. So if the baseline speed was wrong by 1 bit it would take approximately 15 seconds to eat up the whole hump. Since system noise will probably contribute much more than 1 bit to the command, some type of direct digital command is probably called for. This also assumes that the velocity loop of the drive is capable of keeping the stations moving at the speed they are commanded. Ths infers a very high torque loop bandwidth which will allow a high velocity loop bandwidth.

I think it really comes down to the feed forward terms and the capabilities of the drive system. If you can get your baseline speed correct and the drives can keep the axes on command you are in significantly better shape.

Keith
 
Terry Woods said:
TW... which of course also looks like TW as in Terry Woods, please quit doing this damned YOU vs. ME thing. It ain't worth it, it ain't worth it for either of us. Let's stick to dealing with honest evaluations of the particular process problem that was posted.
Terry I'm not understanding what your are saying by this damned YOU vs. ME thing.

There seemed to be a question about whether the "hump" mattered or not and how critical it is. If the rollers can be gear driven together and a single motor used for all of the rollers then I thought that would be relevant to the topic.

Now I'm sure that you have been in many more Steel Mills than me and my few small simple observations in a Steel Mill must seem very childish. I will surely try to refrain from making comments in Steel Mill threads that you have already participated in being that my knowledge of Steel Mills must be too limited and yours much greater.

Maybe I'm going down the road that someone else did in the previous topic, I don't remember it. This is Peter's thread and I know he doesn't wish for this to be hijacked so I bow out. The thread is yours

TW
 
Last edited:
TWControls...

My sincerest apologies. I made a mistake by using your name. I did not intend that for you. If you can find a handy 2x4, you can whack me upside the head the next time you see me! (...several times if you feel the need!)

Again, my apologies.



Keith,

Peter opened this thread because of a question posed in another thread, hence the name of this thread... "The most interesting problem of the last two weeks".

In that problem, the one that Peter was referring to, there were two sets of rollers. The first set was oriented in a horizontal position. As the material came through that roller the material was somewhat flattened and made more ribbon-like. Bear in mind, this is not taffy! There is still plenty of rigidity in the material to keep it from flopping over. The second set of rollers was vertically oriented.

It appears that Peter has changed and added constraints that were different from those in the original question. I don't recall seeing anything about more than two sets of rollers. But then, yeah... I could be wrong (BION!).

Peter said...
"Tom and Terry. It doesn't take any calculus to compute the length along the hump. This is one of the points I want to make."

Referring to the entire problem, which includes the length along the hump, I said this in my original post...
"Certainly, this can be done by Calculus. However, there are many that haven't got the slightest idea of what Calculus is all about. But, there is a good chance that many of them understand Algebra and, hopefully, Geometry. So... I decided to take an Algebraic approach (an Algebraic approximation)."

Peter said...
"Terry, I know you like to do your motion control in the PLC. Would you do this application in a PLC?"

Under the constraints that you proposed... most likely not.

Peter, I've done so much writing on this off-line that I forget sometimes what I've posted or not posted. Going back over the thread I see that I neglected to post any of the numbers that I was working with before this thread was even started.

The original thread called for speeds upto 100 meters-per-second... over 200 mph! That seemed unreasonable.

So, I decided to discount the constraints that were posted and work on the problem as an academic exercise to show what it takes to Roll-yer-Own. And that is how I'll continue to pursue it. Once it is understood how to Roll-yer-Own, it then becomes very easy to determine the limits of one's particular system in terms of the particular problem.

In order to keep everything simple and reasonable in terms of PLC limits, I used very reasonable and modest constraints. Thus, my model is based on a distance of 36 inches between rollers, a height of several inches, and velocities somewhere between 10 and 20 feet-per-second. Again, I did all of that in response to the original thread, before Peter even started this thread.

My intent is to present a Roll-yer-Own Controller that is based on simple Algebraic expressions and explanations.

So far Peter, you have posted formulas that I had already developed. I told you at the beginning that my scheme was to be based on the isosceles triangle. You said that your scheme did so as well. So, we are going down the same path... but maybe, for different purposes.

So, again... I'm still working on it.
 
Terry-

Working under your constraints I can see where my question might seem a little odd. The original thread indicated 5 METERS between stands, as in almost 197 inches. I can see how you could keep the bar/ribbon oriented over 36". The wider gap from the original thread also makes the 100mm hump height much harder to deal with.

Since the original thread also listed a speed of 100 meter/sec, and that is completely unreasonable, I can see how you might come up with your own more reasonable physical system for this academic exercise.

Keith
 

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