JesperMP
Lifetime Supporting Member + Moderator
OP
Started all over, and it is going much better today.
The problems yesterday I grant to Siemens must be because this is version 1.0.0. Stuff like this happens, and lets move on.
Now I have an IM151-8 and ET200S and KP700, all connected via Profinet.
So I have rewritten everything with the latest experiences.
General usage:
Overall, the integration functionality and appearance of TIA Portal is very good, and it looks pretty and slick.
You need a large monitor. It works OK with my 24" screen plus additional 19" screen. I can put the "Properties" window on the small screen. That increases the useful area in the most important window, the editor view.
But if you have a laptop with just a small 17" screen, it will be painful.
Negative is that the speed is slow. Doing something complex, such as inserting a complete station freezes the software for 10-20 seconds. That is not so bad though. More aggrevating is that every simple action such as editing texts, placing contacts, selecting a property etc. happens with a minimal but unignorable delay. This will really irritate in the long run. My PC is a AMD Athlon 64 X2 Dual 4400+ @2.2 GHz. I have only 2 GB RAM, but it is not fully utilised. I am going to ask IT to add 2 more GB and see if that helps. Programs and projects are stored on local hard disks.
Update: After closing ALL other programs, i "feel" a slight improvement. So it may well be that maximum RAM should be installed on the machine.
The interface is very mouse-intensive.
For drag-and-drop, a small niggle that reminds of WinCC Flex, is that you cannot directly select and drag an element. You have to first select with a click on the element, and then you can click and drag the selected element. Irritating. This seems to be the same for all editors and dialogs.
The stability of TIA Portal is better than for example WinCC Fexible 2004. I did have a problem at my first attempt. But after I have managed to setup a project, I have not had a problem for a full day.
The hardware and network configuration:
It takes a lot of getting used to, but seems to be logically organised. It is much more slick and visual, which is nice of course. The integration is high. It was this that somehow failed in my first attempt. When it works, it works well.
STEP7 LAD editor:
In the declaration of variables, there is a drop down menu for the various types. Very similar to the old editor.
But, the IEC timer TON was not in the drop down menu.
There is an instruction menu from where you can drag-and-drop for example the TON instruction. You dont have to add the SFBs or SFCs manually which is a step forward.
The logical step would be to drag-and-drop TON from the instruction menu to the declaration list, but that does not work. However, you can just type in "TON" and the editor figures out that you mean to add the TON SFC. (this is the first example that drag-and-drop that does not work
). I am guessing that this is persistent for all multi instance FB calls, but I will have to do some further testing.
The IEC timers are different to the old version. Now there is no EN or ENO. The TON block simply appears in the middle of the rung where you need it. I shall have to investigate further what that means to the functionality.
When adding an IEC timer, a dialog pops up where you can choose the IDB or the multi-instance name. Strangely you cannot browse to an already configured TON declaration. If you close the dialog, then you can manually enter, or even browse to the configured declaration. Thats a bit inconsistent.
Good is that you can save even if the code is not finished, with non-closed rungs for example.
I find that navigation by the keyboard only is not efficient enough.
Scrolling with the mouse is snappy. But it seems that it is not possible to quickly browse through rungs with the keyboard (!).
Editing Symbols (now called "PLC Tags") also lacks that you can type in the name or the address, and then close the dialog with a hot-key. (in v5.5 you could use ALT-O for "OK"). Suggestion to Siemens: Add a hotkey to accept and close dialogs.
There is an instruction favorite bar, and you can add instructions to these favourites. But you cannot assign hot-keys to your own favourites.
Since there are only 6 predefined instructions with hot-keys, you can in reality forget about coding efficiently with the keyboard only.
And so on and so on....
Whoever wrote this software did not have oldfashioned keyboard-only programmers in mind
Something strange that only confirms this: It seems that the designers thought that hot-keys would not be necessary. For example, if I place a contact and want to assign the PLC tag by browsing, then there is no hot-key to call up a list of PLC tags. But if you wait 5-10 seconds without doing anything, the list then pops up automatically. Is that hare-brained or what ? This "functionality" works the same for many other dialogs.
I found that a half-acceptable workaround would be like this:
Selecting variables from the PLC tags: Start by typing a quote ("), and the list of PLC tags pops up.
Placing instructions: Use SHIFT-F5 to place an unspecified "block", then type in the shorthand code for the desired function. Yes, that means you have to memorise all the shorthand codes for the instruction set.
Suggestion to Siemens: When hitting SPACE when any of these dialog are active, please display the list of PLC tags, or instructions.
STEP7 SCL editor:
The SCL editor now works in much the same way as the LAD editor. This means you must define the declaration part in the declaration editor, which works exactly as in the LAD editior.
Also, you can only write one block at a time.
There are functions to export the SCL code to text files ("source" files), and conversely to import from external source files. So there are source file just like in v5.5, only now you primarily code in the dedicated code editor.
You can no longer create UDTs or DBs in SCL !
Too bad. I really liked to combine code in one SCL document. Also, I found it nifty to quickly set actual values by an explicit statament in the DB declaration.
Auto indentation works well.
Auto-suggestion also works, for both instructions and PLC Tags.
Some have reported that the editor automatically places an END_IF after an IF, automatically closes statements with ";" and so forth. But I havent seen this. But you can insert a FOR template for example, just as in v5.5.
Another quirk: If you want to browse to "MyData".mystruct.val22 for example, for every level where there is a preiod ("."), you select the current address at the current level, and then the view closes. You have to press the period (".") key to get to the next level. It is more irritating than it sounds (!).
Suggestion to Siemens: Why not just browse all the way to the desired data with the arrow keys, and accept with ENTER ?
STEP7 DB editor and online view:
Works much like the old editor.
One thing, you have to remember to manually compile the block. Otherwise the declarations will not permeate through the project.
Also, only then can you observe and change values online.
(I think I managed to download an uncompiled datablock before I figured this out).
STEP7 Variable Table view:
Works much like the old VAT. Only you have to remember to compile the DBs you want to monitor.
WinCC browsing for PLC tags:
This is the much-touted integration with the CPU.
Works OK, but there is nothing new when compared to the older Flexible.
WinCC screen editor:
It is really very much like Flexible, not surprising.
One bad thing is that the toolbar now has much fewer functions you can click directly. There is a dropdown menu for each kind of activity, and the toolbar remembers the last selected. So if you have to repeatedly align objects to the left side that is fine. But if you have to align varyingly to the left, to the top, to the bottom, you need many more mouse-clicks than before. It appears that this toolbar is not configurable.
WinCC Property view of screen object:
This one kills me. The size of the field for the Tag is far far too small. Just like in WinCC Flexible !
You cannot see the whole tag name, or address, unless they are unrealistically short.
How can they repeat this error which has been complained about ad nauseam ?
WinCC VBS Script editor:
Not much has changed.
A new thing is that you can hit CTRL-J in order to browse for Tags you want to insert.
Strange is that now there are 3 quotes around smarttags. I.e.: SmartTags("""MyData_r._02""").
The new Comfort Panels:
I have only tried editing a KP700 in WinCC. But what a difference a boost in screen resolution from 320x240 to 800x480 makes !
This panel is going to be a winner. Cant believe that you get a brighter and bigger and much higher resolution screen, much higher performance, alu front, and at a lower price than before. There must be a catch ?!
Conclusion so far:
Will continue. But at the moment I am stuck with not being able to migrate old projects. I dont want to have to rewrite everthing from scratch.
I am open to requests for things to investigate.
The problems yesterday I grant to Siemens must be because this is version 1.0.0. Stuff like this happens, and lets move on.
Now I have an IM151-8 and ET200S and KP700, all connected via Profinet.
So I have rewritten everything with the latest experiences.
General usage:
Overall, the integration functionality and appearance of TIA Portal is very good, and it looks pretty and slick.
You need a large monitor. It works OK with my 24" screen plus additional 19" screen. I can put the "Properties" window on the small screen. That increases the useful area in the most important window, the editor view.
But if you have a laptop with just a small 17" screen, it will be painful.
Negative is that the speed is slow. Doing something complex, such as inserting a complete station freezes the software for 10-20 seconds. That is not so bad though. More aggrevating is that every simple action such as editing texts, placing contacts, selecting a property etc. happens with a minimal but unignorable delay. This will really irritate in the long run. My PC is a AMD Athlon 64 X2 Dual 4400+ @2.2 GHz. I have only 2 GB RAM, but it is not fully utilised. I am going to ask IT to add 2 more GB and see if that helps. Programs and projects are stored on local hard disks.
Update: After closing ALL other programs, i "feel" a slight improvement. So it may well be that maximum RAM should be installed on the machine.
The interface is very mouse-intensive.
For drag-and-drop, a small niggle that reminds of WinCC Flex, is that you cannot directly select and drag an element. You have to first select with a click on the element, and then you can click and drag the selected element. Irritating. This seems to be the same for all editors and dialogs.
The stability of TIA Portal is better than for example WinCC Fexible 2004. I did have a problem at my first attempt. But after I have managed to setup a project, I have not had a problem for a full day.
The hardware and network configuration:
It takes a lot of getting used to, but seems to be logically organised. It is much more slick and visual, which is nice of course. The integration is high. It was this that somehow failed in my first attempt. When it works, it works well.
STEP7 LAD editor:
In the declaration of variables, there is a drop down menu for the various types. Very similar to the old editor.
But, the IEC timer TON was not in the drop down menu.
There is an instruction menu from where you can drag-and-drop for example the TON instruction. You dont have to add the SFBs or SFCs manually which is a step forward.
The logical step would be to drag-and-drop TON from the instruction menu to the declaration list, but that does not work. However, you can just type in "TON" and the editor figures out that you mean to add the TON SFC. (this is the first example that drag-and-drop that does not work
). I am guessing that this is persistent for all multi instance FB calls, but I will have to do some further testing.The IEC timers are different to the old version. Now there is no EN or ENO. The TON block simply appears in the middle of the rung where you need it. I shall have to investigate further what that means to the functionality.
When adding an IEC timer, a dialog pops up where you can choose the IDB or the multi-instance name. Strangely you cannot browse to an already configured TON declaration. If you close the dialog, then you can manually enter, or even browse to the configured declaration. Thats a bit inconsistent.
Good is that you can save even if the code is not finished, with non-closed rungs for example.
I find that navigation by the keyboard only is not efficient enough.
Scrolling with the mouse is snappy. But it seems that it is not possible to quickly browse through rungs with the keyboard (!).
Editing Symbols (now called "PLC Tags") also lacks that you can type in the name or the address, and then close the dialog with a hot-key. (in v5.5 you could use ALT-O for "OK"). Suggestion to Siemens: Add a hotkey to accept and close dialogs.
There is an instruction favorite bar, and you can add instructions to these favourites. But you cannot assign hot-keys to your own favourites.
Since there are only 6 predefined instructions with hot-keys, you can in reality forget about coding efficiently with the keyboard only.
And so on and so on....
Whoever wrote this software did not have oldfashioned keyboard-only programmers in mind
Something strange that only confirms this: It seems that the designers thought that hot-keys would not be necessary. For example, if I place a contact and want to assign the PLC tag by browsing, then there is no hot-key to call up a list of PLC tags. But if you wait 5-10 seconds without doing anything, the list then pops up automatically. Is that hare-brained or what ? This "functionality" works the same for many other dialogs.
I found that a half-acceptable workaround would be like this:
Selecting variables from the PLC tags: Start by typing a quote ("), and the list of PLC tags pops up.
Placing instructions: Use SHIFT-F5 to place an unspecified "block", then type in the shorthand code for the desired function. Yes, that means you have to memorise all the shorthand codes for the instruction set.
Suggestion to Siemens: When hitting SPACE when any of these dialog are active, please display the list of PLC tags, or instructions.
STEP7 SCL editor:
The SCL editor now works in much the same way as the LAD editor. This means you must define the declaration part in the declaration editor, which works exactly as in the LAD editior.
Also, you can only write one block at a time.
There are functions to export the SCL code to text files ("source" files), and conversely to import from external source files. So there are source file just like in v5.5, only now you primarily code in the dedicated code editor.
You can no longer create UDTs or DBs in SCL !
Too bad. I really liked to combine code in one SCL document. Also, I found it nifty to quickly set actual values by an explicit statament in the DB declaration.
Auto indentation works well.
Auto-suggestion also works, for both instructions and PLC Tags.
Some have reported that the editor automatically places an END_IF after an IF, automatically closes statements with ";" and so forth. But I havent seen this. But you can insert a FOR template for example, just as in v5.5.
Another quirk: If you want to browse to "MyData".mystruct.val22 for example, for every level where there is a preiod ("."), you select the current address at the current level, and then the view closes. You have to press the period (".") key to get to the next level. It is more irritating than it sounds (!).
Suggestion to Siemens: Why not just browse all the way to the desired data with the arrow keys, and accept with ENTER ?
STEP7 DB editor and online view:
Works much like the old editor.
One thing, you have to remember to manually compile the block. Otherwise the declarations will not permeate through the project.
Also, only then can you observe and change values online.
(I think I managed to download an uncompiled datablock before I figured this out).
STEP7 Variable Table view:
Works much like the old VAT. Only you have to remember to compile the DBs you want to monitor.
WinCC browsing for PLC tags:
This is the much-touted integration with the CPU.
Works OK, but there is nothing new when compared to the older Flexible.
WinCC screen editor:
It is really very much like Flexible, not surprising.
One bad thing is that the toolbar now has much fewer functions you can click directly. There is a dropdown menu for each kind of activity, and the toolbar remembers the last selected. So if you have to repeatedly align objects to the left side that is fine. But if you have to align varyingly to the left, to the top, to the bottom, you need many more mouse-clicks than before. It appears that this toolbar is not configurable.
WinCC Property view of screen object:
This one kills me. The size of the field for the Tag is far far too small. Just like in WinCC Flexible !
You cannot see the whole tag name, or address, unless they are unrealistically short.
How can they repeat this error which has been complained about ad nauseam ?
WinCC VBS Script editor:
Not much has changed.
A new thing is that you can hit CTRL-J in order to browse for Tags you want to insert.
Strange is that now there are 3 quotes around smarttags. I.e.: SmartTags("""MyData_r._02""").
The new Comfort Panels:
I have only tried editing a KP700 in WinCC. But what a difference a boost in screen resolution from 320x240 to 800x480 makes !
This panel is going to be a winner. Cant believe that you get a brighter and bigger and much higher resolution screen, much higher performance, alu front, and at a lower price than before. There must be a catch ?!
Conclusion so far:
I think that you can actually use TIA Portal at the moment. At least for smaller project. However, Siemens has to finetune the user interface in order to make full-time coding productive. As it stands now, I cannot recommend TIA Portal as the main tool for full-time programmers.
Final words so far..
Will continue. But at the moment I am stuck with not being able to migrate old projects. I dont want to have to rewrite everthing from scratch.
I am open to requests for things to investigate.
Last edited:
