Vision Systems

[ContIntl]

Hey everyone,

I'm having a very difficult time finding reviews, videos, and information regarding differences in video systems that doesn't come straight from the company. I looked at a few older threads on this forum regarding cognex and keyence, but they were >= 10 years ago. I'm wanting to know if anyone can give me any insight on the newer systems. The internet doesn't seem to be too helpful in providing unbiased sources of information. I've been emailing the companies and it's like pulling teeth to get information. If anyone has an relevant information on these companies or reviews I'd love to hear it.

Project: Inspect O-rings
We're looking at inspecting the ID and cross section of O-rings (multiple sizes) as well as defects in the material (cuts, deformation, etc.) for pass/fail testing. I was looking at putting one camera above and one of the side. They would link to something that then pushes them into the appropriate bin based on passing or failing.

My understanding on these systems is they can be used for multiple parts and I could move the cameras to inspect other parts of a different type. Which would ultimately be a goal.

I understand that the sales/engineering for these companies would be the perfect place to ask these questions, but they just aren't helpful in a timely manner.

Thanks for the time!

 

[BlueAltezza]

I've used mainly Cognex, but have done a few Keyence systems and dabbled with a Datalogic system.

I'd say Cognex's EasyBuilder is the most user friendly interface. It's designed around drag & drop and it keeps a lot of the details of each tool somewhat buried to not add confusion. They offer the VisionView screen which is really nice to mount near the system if you don't have a PC nearby.
If you want to customize things and do more powerful inspections you can learn the spreadsheet method of setting up the cameras. Their support network is probably the widest across the country.

Second would be Keyence's system as it is drag and drop as well. Their screen isn't as affordable or small, but the fact they offer a dedicated screen is really nice. Their equipment overall has been reasonably priced and I have great local support to help spec equipment and answer questions.

Datalogic's interface is very confusing for the average joe so I'd stay far away from that if you're doing this yourself. The upside is their system was the most powerful and most customizable that I've seen - but you really need to know the system to tap into any of its potential. Their support in my experience was really, really poor. They rely on their integrators to be the support for the equipment so if you don't have one nearby you're putting yourself in a tough spot.

Which brings me to my next suggestion - decide on a system which has the best support network in your area. It would be best to find an integrator rather than deal with the company directly (other than Keyence as they are all direct).
I'm surprised Cognex or Keyence hasn't been very timely. You're not far - it's possible my reps cover your area. I'd be more than happy to reach out to them for you if you want - just shoot me a private message!

 

[raffles]

I have only used cognex cameras so can only provide input for that. I have used them in several applications and have found them very good. You can have different projects for inspecting different parts and then load into the camera which one you would want to use.

Programming can be very straightforward but there is a learning curve, especially when you get past the easy builder interface. Download the software and try it out - you can use images you took with your camera to try it. They also had some training courses you could download on there website which would help you to.

The distributor here can be a little lacking regarding "timely manner" - yours will no doubt be better, but the tech support the two times I have called was great, and the product has been robust for the models I've used

 

[Mispeld]

I will echo the previous replies regarding Cognex and Keyence as being reputable equipment suppliers. The success of a project as described is critically dependent on overall system design, of which the camera is just one aspect. There will also be optics, lighting, and integration requirements. You may consider finding an experienced vision system integrator, and provide application details such as part size/shape range, measurement tolerances, defect detection expectation, inspection rate, physical arrangement (e.g., conveyor layout), external control systems, etc. Though it may add some cost, that person or firm may well be cheaper in the long run by designing a complete system with properly specified and integrated components.

 

[ContIntl]

I will echo the previous replies regarding Cognex and Keyence as being reputable equipment suppliers. The success of a project as described is critically dependent on overall system design, of which the camera is just one aspect. There will also be optics, lighting, and integration requirements. You may consider finding an experienced vision system integrator, and provide application details such as part size/shape range, measurement tolerances, defect detection expectation, inspection rate, physical arrangement (e.g., conveyor layout), external control systems, etc. Though it may add some cost, that person or firm may well be cheaper in the long run by designing a complete system with properly specified and integrated components.

I'd love to do this, but we're a small company. I guess it depends on how much it will cost. We have a lot of the supplies that were bought and left over from the guy before me. I'm worried if I bring in an integrator we're going to be way over budget. Have you worked with an integrator before? What kind of experience did you have?

 

[RussB]

Banner Engineering can do this simply and economically enough to likely have a setup for each size, for this type of application Lighting and speed will likely be key. Plus they are typically very supportive and quick to reply. Generally to pickup flaws in this type of material a low level or on-axis may be needed, it may depend on how big of flaw can be tolerated.
To consider:
~ How do you plan to test both sides and all surfaces for these flaws?
~ How much time can each sensor have to do its job of checking for flaws and measuring?
~ Generally measuring is fastest and most accurate with a back light, which will not easily detect flaws.

 

[JordanCClark]

Keyence has a new vision sensor that we've started to use. It could sense between two similar sized springs, but with different gauge wire. Pretty slick.

http://www.keyence.com/products/sensor/vision-sensor/ai/index.jsp

I can call up my Keyence guy and get you some contact info for Fort Wayne, if you wish.

 

[Mispeld]

I'd love to do this, but we're a small company. I guess it depends on how much it will cost. We have a lot of the supplies that were bought and left over from the guy before me. I'm worried if I bring in an integrator we're going to be way over budget. Have you worked with an integrator before? What kind of experience did you have?

I will say that I have good experience with integrators on systems that were not complex or with tight specifications on performance. In some cases the integrator provided "free" engineering on the selection of camera, lens, filter, lighting, and start-up programming -- with the expectation that they would get the sale for all that equipment. It was understood that engineering was provided on an "as-is" basis, in that you would have no leverage if the system did not perform to expectation. Though, the integrator may be motivated to follow-up and create a longer-term sales relationship.

In my view, the best thing you can do is set the performance requirements as clearly and completely as possible before asking for system design assistance. For example, if you are wanting an ID measurement repeatability on the order of 0.001" and the integrator is thinking 0.1" you probably will not get the expected performance; or if reversed, you may over-pay for capability you don't need.

Some of these firms may be willing to go pretty far to get the sale. Even a manufacturer like Cognex will do some engineering, though you will pretty much surely get a solution built on their products.

 

[James Mcquade]

I have used cognex with no issues, but the Keyence rep sold us a system that was totally incapable of doing what he said it would. Cognex refused to quote stating it wouldn't work and Keyence got it. Cognex was right.

I would get samples of everything - good, damaged, and rejects and let your vendors come in and look at them. Have the specs of each sample with you and the tolerance allowed. let them tell you if they can do the job and have it in writing.

regards,
james

 

[jstolaruk]

Echo cognex and Keyence as the two big choices. And I agree about giving each of them samples to try out with your requirements. I always treat vision systems just like I do gages and subject them to GR&R and accuracy studies.

 

[Dravik]

We've got Cognex, Keyence, Systech, and Optel sytems on site.

The Systech and Optel solutions were designed for us and do a good job. I dislike the inability to build 'custom' inspections with these systems easily but they have very user friendly interfaces as a result.

The Cognex and Keyence systems are more flexible for us internally, but the interfaces aren't as user friendly so we spend more time integrating those into existing HMIs/Control Systems.

I'll second having Keyence overpromise, just have to talk the sales guys back down to reality sometimes. Nice folks tho.

 

[JordanCClark]

I will say that if you get an actual vision guy from Keyence, they should also be able to do a capability study for you if you give them samples.

I've also gotten overpromised, especially on their older systems, but they've gotten more careful for us after we've spanked them a few times.

 

[ContIntl]

Thanks for the help guys. The Keyence guy is coming today for a demo and I have all the products lined up to be inspected. We'll see how this test goes. Wish him luck! haha