Your opinion on Which PLC manufacturer is the future

[shoelesscraig]

The schooling you are now involved in is just the beginning. Chances are you will learn more your first year on the job then you did during your entire school career.

I don't believe that I've read a more true statement in my entire life. Well said.

 

[johnms1024]

Fanuc on order - how to suggest change to AB or Siemens

Hi,
I'm about to start working at a company that's ordered some GE Fanuc PLCs for a new plant, however after reading this thread it sounds like, being in the USA, I ought to "suggest" AB (or Siemens) AFTER I find out WHY they ordered GE (perhaps an engineer preference).

Since I'm the one that has to learn this new system and get it integrated I'd like it to be a brand with the most possibilities to tie into and get info out of with the most support I can get. Again, this thread seems to recommend AB or Siemens.

1st, Any suggestions on how to suggest a switch to AB or Siemens, when I have NO PLC experience in the first place? (my background in programming and hardware is partly what got me this opening).

2nd, what's wrong with Fanuc (just wondering since I've seen no details on the recommendations, just warnings).

Thanks so much.

 

[BobB]

Bit like beer actually - 'there ain't no bad beers - just some are better than others'.
I heard GE had broken their relationship with Fanuc?

 

[TimothyMoulder]

Disclaimer - I don't work for Unitronics, I work for a major american power tool manufacturer. And no, I can't get you a free drill...

Don't overlook the smaller players. Our vendor had Unitronics and Omron. Omron demanded they drop Unitronics in favor of their stuff - the vendor dropped Omron. Especially today, cost is a huge factor for customers deciding what they want to buy, and the vendor moves alot more units for Uni than they do Omron.

TM

 

[PLCMentor]

Hi,
I'm about to start working at a company that's ordered some GE Fanuc PLCs for a new plant, however after reading this thread it sounds like, being in the USA, I ought to "suggest" AB (or Siemens) AFTER I find out WHY they ordered GE (perhaps an engineer preference).

Since I'm the one that has to learn this new system and get it integrated I'd like it to be a brand with the most possibilities to tie into and get info out of with the most support I can get. Again, this thread seems to recommend AB or Siemens.

1st, Any suggestions on how to suggest a switch to AB or Siemens, when I have NO PLC experience in the first place? (my background in programming and hardware is partly what got me this opening).

2nd, what's wrong with Fanuc (just wondering since I've seen no details on the recommendations, just warnings).

Thanks so much.

Well given what you have said, I think your first step would be to ask why GE was chosen. I have friends that love the GE platform. I think it is cumbersome and difficult to work with (I will say I have never used the RX stuff). AB does own the US market, but as I have said before thay may not apply to your plant/area. Find out what is in your plant. If your plant if filled consistently with a bunch of one manufacturer, I would tend to favor that manufacturer. Bringing the tech guys up to speed on AB because of my preference would not be doing my client a favor (not to mention the software purchases necessary). If you have a plant full of GE then GE makes sense. Of course there is also the strong possibility of a good sales guy talking to someone that doesnt know how to spell PLC. That is a good place to intervene. BEFORE you intervene, you need to make sure you are not that guy who doesnt know how to spell PLC. Posting here is a strong first step. I would suggest asking questions about the PLC choice at this point and working to educate yourself on PLC's and what's available. If you know an independent integrator/consultant you can talk to (ie, not distributor) then do so. At this point your only real course may be to find out more on why the choice was made to make sure the choice was made for the right reasons.

Secondly, how are they going to get you up to speed on the new system? Are you going to be expected to put this together and program it from scratch? That's a tall order if you dont know PLC's. I would be more concerned with that than what brand they are picking.

 

[johnms1024]

New to GE Fanuc/IP

Hi all. Thanks for the replies.

BobB - yes GE and Fanuc split up. Fanuc is focusing on CNC now and GE is now GE Intelligent Platforms for the PLC stuff.

BobB - GE and Fanuc just split up in the last few months and Fanuc is focused on CNCs now and GE is doing PLCs as GE Intelligent Platforms.

PLC Mentor - The plant is new and they don't have any equipment in it yet, but the first production line is due to arrive in a month and will be making product by the end of the following month. As for learning to program the PLC's, they are wiling to send me or get me whatever training I might need...only problem is that I've got to figure out what the best training would be (or combination, like books, class, etc) and get it FAST.

I will definately be asking their consulting engineer why he/they went with GE (just so I'll understand their thinking process if nothing else.)

Any training suggestions?

Thanks for the ready replies. Glad to know I have a good support community so I'm not totally in the dark.

 

[jstolaruk]

Too late to switch PLC mfgs, the right time would have been when the equipment was out for quote, probably many months ago.

 

[PLCMentor]

OK, it would be good to understand why they chose the GE platform, but it will be more important to jump on board and get up to speed. If your first line arrives in a month then you should get your training before it arrives. Get a laptop, programming software, everything you will need to support the system before the system arrives. The consultant that specified the software should be able to help you there or possibly the person that leads your training. Contact your local GE rep and start to develop a relationship with them. They will become one of your lifelines if there are problems and they may be able to offer you quick training. Once the system arrives, your real training begins. The people that come to start the system up should be experienced in the system and you will learn much from them. During the startup time you should make sure your software is properly installed on your laptop with the final version of the program. You should be comfortable with hooking up to the system, going online, making changes and basic troubleshooting. That month that it will take to install and bring the line up is your best chance to come up to speed quick with people that know the system. Your best place while they are there is right in the middle of them tapping them for everything they are worth. Thats why it is important that you are trained and ready with the basics beforehand so you are not totally lost when they arrive. You also will develop a relationship with them that will give you a comfort factor when you need to call them for advice/assistance in the future.

 

[Steve Bailey]

Given the timtable you've outlined, I don't think your company ordered a bunch of GE PLCs. I think they ordered equipment and specified that the equipment builders use GE PLCs. That means you'll need to get familiar enough to be able to maintain the equipment once it arrives. That's a far less daunting task than having to start programming a PLC from a clean sheet of paper.

Furthermore, if you're expeted to be in production in two months, forget about asking any of the equipment makers to change PLC brands at this late date. To do so would be giving them a license to miss their delivery date.

What is your role in this new facility? Are you the only person who will be involved with the equipment controls or are there others in the same boat as you? GE offers training at their factory in Virginia as well as at other locations. They will bring the training to your facility, but that gets very expensive. Some local distributors also offer training, but be aware that the quality varies greatly among the distributors that offer it. At its best distributor training can be as good as what the factory offers. At its worst, it is little more than a sales demo.

Finally, check your private messages.

 

[cjd1965]

Hi
I think that the statment 'AB in the USA' suits you best.

For what it is worth,I use various PLC'S, quite new to Siemens S7-300, many years GE / AB /Mitsi / Modicon

I think that Siemens are pretty much a leader and I now prefer Siemens and am actively pursuing this career wise..my new employer to be is 90% Siemens.

GE seems to be slated here however I think it is freindly and pretty reliable kit once you have had a quick course. Only thing is they tend to release software too early (aka buggy).
I know somewhere still using Series 6....

Mitsi is reliable ... cheap, reliable, fit and forget. I opened an old panel and found an old mitsi with drawings from 1985

Modicon is weird and quirky (984) ...network scan is top to bottom left to right etc. Hardware robust though.

I have done AB control logix and personally prefer Siemens.

I you gotta go with any manuafacturer at a plant level you should get good support and training if your buying a bucket load of kit

Cheers

 

[Ron Beaufort]

Greetings johnms1024 ...

as for WHY a certain brand is chosen, here are some common reasons:

(1) maybe the plant didn't specify a specific brand – but the vendor (machine builder) was more comfortable with a certain make – and that's the one they decided to use ...

(2) maybe a bean-counter somewhere along the way just went by the "bottom line" price tag and went with the lowest bid ...

(3) maybe (as you said) one of the customer's engineers/programmers, etc. felt more comfortable with a certain brand – and specified that make ...

(4) and of course the list could go on ...

but regardless of "WHY" - the best plan of attack is to decide whether or not the chosen path is the way to continue onward in the future ... specifically, if other machinery is to be installed in this new plant, someone needs to carefully consider whether or not the "first" chosen brand is going to be the best fit FOREVER ... my point: if you think that changing brands NOW is going to be difficult, then consider what such a change will be like after many more pieces of the puzzle have been installed ...

Any training suggestions?

if I were you, I'd get in touch with the company who is already doing the programming and ask for a detailed hardware and software list of the equipment to be used ... then get your hands on a working "bench top" setup and start plugging away at the problem ... if the job is big enough, a suitable "demo" unit from the vendor's/supplier's "spare stock" might be very easy to arrange ... even if it's not, then you could probably get enough e-bay parts to put together a system for your own use ... naturally the forum members will be glad to help answer any specific questions that you have as you work yourself up the learning curve ...

also ask for a current copy of the program ... they'll probably tell you that it's not ready for use – but even a "work-in-progress" copy would be better than nothing ...

the next thing is to detail just what you mean by "learning to program" this equipment ... based on what you've posted so far, I'd say there's a good chance that you will NOT be required to write a program "from scratch" – but rather to troubleshoot and/or debug the system that the vendor is about to install - and then make minor adjustments and modifications ... those types of "programming" job skills would be a LOT easier to acquire within the timeframe that you've mentioned ...

Thanks for the ready replies. Glad to know I have a good support community so I'm not totally in the dark.

trust me ... you have come to the right place ... good luck with your project – and please keep us posted on the outcome ...

and welcome to the forum ...

 

[Fiddeflygare]

The schooling you are now involved in is just the beginning. Chances are you will learn more your first year on the job then you did during your entire school career.

I agree with this statement. I finished school in june of 2009 and have worked at a firm that does automation solutions since october. What i think you should focus on is probably AB since you are in the US but i don't think you should focus too much on the brand of the PLC maker but instead focus on the programming languages and learning the thougth processes when solving problems. I was schooled on Mitsubishi and Siemens S7 systems but since i started to work i have mostly programmed Bosch Rexroth and Beckhoff systems and some Mitsubishi.

What have i found out? That it is more important to know the thinking processes, to be a good problem solver and know how to structure your thougts so that the program you make have a goo and logical structure with good comments on most of the program parts. And finally to be able to program in the prefered language for the customer. Some of the customers service guys wants Ladder, other ST, another one IL, One SFC etc.

So i would focus more on the language and structure of a program because most manufacturers way of configuring the hardware is either similar to one and another or if you have a problem all of the ones i have came across have an excellent help-file for the configuring of a system. I would choose AB to start learning from since as i've said you live in the US but i would also learn one system that has full implementation of CoDeSys if AB doesn't have that just to see the differenses between them.
:nodi:

 

[aryautomation]

I have installed and programmed PLC's for about 30 different corporations and about 100 plc's. most of them ask for AB, two asked for GE, and government and military bases have asked me for square D(modicon). The only one who requested to install a siemen was siemen corporation.

 

[johnms1024]

Thanks for all the answers

Thanks to everyone who chimed in. I've been working for 4 weeks now (yeah - especially after 10 months of unemployment!) I've discovered we actually don't have any GE Fanuc equipment at all presently. But we do have a mix of vendors as our production line is made up of equipment from at least 3 different vendors, all of whom have used different PLC manufacturers. Yeah! More to learn! Siemens S7, Elau (C600 and MAX4), A/B - all either here or will be at some point. We will be using an OPC server to pull the data from the PLCs in to a historian, then into the MES and eventually into an ERP.

I'm looking forward to it! And if I ever do get to work on the PLCs themselves to make any changes I'm sure this forum will be a great resource. I'm hoping to get the manuals and lab book and DVD's from this site ordered soon :site: so I can start going through them to get ready.

Thanks again to everyone!

 

[wazzajnr]

Our company manufactures machines and we are currently starting to use Control techniques drives with applications modules thus doing away with the PLC completely. We find this is cheaper and reduces wiring between various sections of the line. The drives can be relatively local to the motor they are controlling and any line data can be written to each drive which then decides itself what to do.
Most customers are specific in which PLC they want but less are concerned with which drives they use so normally when they ask which PLC we use we just say that all the programming is in the drives and they seem to accept this.
I think that this more distributed approach to control could be the future.
BTW i have no links to CT just think their products are excellent for our applications!!