how can i solve this analg output problem ??

i have an electronic card which its output is analog 0: 10 vdc

this analog output is connected to an AC DRIVE as ALTIVAR 16 from telemecanique which control the spped of a motor

the normal case when i switch on this electronic card , the analog output is zero volt as then the motor is stop no motion and we can increase this voltage and decrease it between 0 : 10 vdc according to the desired speed

now , when i switch on this electronic card , the analog output is 10 vdc !! which mean the motor move with very high speed !! as this very danger

when we stop the motor , the motor stopped well and the analog output became zero and when increase or decrease the voltage the speed change well as the analog output chabge from 0 : 10 vdc well

the question how can i make the first one i switch on this electronic card the analog output is zero volt as the motor must be stopped instead of when i switch on this electronic card the analog output become 10 vdc ??

thanks

You need to look at the PLC code which is controlling the analog output signal. Which PLC do you have, and could you post the program here

Edit : Do you mean a dedicated electronic board, not a PLC?

I haven't used the Altivar range and you haven't said if the 0-10V is from a PLC or not. So this is very much a guess answer.

The PLCs I use have an option in the System settings to set the output from the analogue unit at power down, so I can set that to be zero. I make the Variable that is holding the output level for the analogue card to be non-retained, and set it to zero on the first scan of the PLC.

The Drives I use have a control terminal that is an 'Enable' input, the drive won't run until that contact is closed, so I make sure that the 'enable' isn't set until it is safe for the motor to run.

Bryan

the electronic card i have it is not PLC but it an Optmove1 from ITWGEMA

as we have a powder industrial coating system from gemavolstatic which the electronic board i mean which is the optimove 1 from ITWGEMA

I will attaached the manual of this Optmove1 from ITWGEMA as the analog output come from X3 DRIVE CONTROL , 1A , 1 B see page 37 from the attached manual file

The output analog voltage come from 1A & 1B


THANKS

for reminder


the solution may by any external control circuit may be contain relay ...etc as when we switch on the optimove1 the analoge output must be be zero voltage

or any another solution !!


as when we switch on the optimove1 the 10 vdc come automatically to ALTIVAR 16 and then the motor move rapidlly without any control until we stopped it and may make danger or accident !!


thanks

for reminder !!

have no idea what is that card but if i understand the problem is only on powerup. this could be sorted out with simple timer (omron H3CR or whatever you have at hand).

magdyfayad said:

the electronic card i have it is not PLC but it an Optmove1 from ITWGEMA

as we have a powder industrial coating system from gemavolstatic which the electronic board i mean which is the optimove 1 from ITWGEMA

I will attaached the manual of this Optmove1 from ITWGEMA as the analog output come from X3 DRIVE CONTROL , 1A , 1 B see page 37 from the attached manual file

The output analog voltage come from 1A & 1B


THANKS

Click to expand...

Most drives also have a digital run signal as well as the analogue input. See if you can use the 3A and 3B PRP run signals for that - you may find that the analogue output has settled down by the time the run signal has been set? Otherwise use a timer to inhibit the run signal of your drive until the analogue has settled as suggested above.

Al

thanks for your help

magdyfayad,

It your motor starts at once, then there must be a "program" already inside your Optimove1 card. See PDF page 31 of the manual. If you put in a "dummy" program with only a "Switch Axis Off" command, and always start with that, then your motor should not move.

If the motor moving does cause a danger, then I would insist that a physical switch or relay be added to disconnect the motor drive RUN output terminals 3A and 3B (Page 43), until ready to RUN.

thanks very much for your reply

see this link

http://www.plctalk.net/qanda/showthread.php?t=40978


and i want to contiue with me

note : i don not understand what do you mean by " If you put in a "dummy" program with only a "Switch Axis Off" command, and always start with that, then your motor should not move"


thanks again


and i want to see your opnion !!

note : I do not understand what do you mean by "If you put in a "dummy" program with only a "Switch Axis Off" command, and always start with that, then your motor should not move"

Click to expand...

I assumed that the Optimove will not send out a 10 volt signal UNLESS it is trying to move the motor. If it is trying to move the motor, then there must be a program inside it that is saying "Run Motor".

On the other hand, if the Optimove actually is set up to send out 10 volts when the motor must be off, then you need a Signal Conditioner between the Optimove and the Altvair drive to reverse the signal.

Which of these cases do you have?

Case 1
Optimove signal +10 volts = Motor On Full Speed
Optimove signal 0 volts = Motor Off

Case 2
Optimove signal +10 = Motor Off
Optimove signal 0 volts = Motor On Full Speed

In any case, the drive speed signal is NOT the problem. It is those Optimove terminals 3A and 3B. They must be ON to give the drive a "START" command. That is the place you need to change. You must break the connection at 3A & 3B until you press the RUN button. That SHOULD be done automatically by the Optimove.

note : there is no problem on the AC drive , the problem only when we power up optimove 1 the analog voltage 10 VDC come automatically without push start key

Click to expand...

There could be a problem with the drive, if it is not programmed correctly to only run when it receives a START command. As Okie told you, it should be programmed for "2-wire control".

this rapid signal come from optimove 1 and it connected to the AC drive , at the power up of optimove 1 this rapid signnal became zero voltage dc so i use this signal to disconnect the analoge output 10 vdc by that realy at the power up only till we push start key

Click to expand...

If you connected a relay to the 10 vdc speed signal of the drive, then you have created a problem for yourself. The relay coil inductance and resistance probably will keep the drive from operating correctly. Use a different voltage, maybe from the Start Key itself, to energize your relay and connect the START terminals of the Altivar drive.

NOTE: The drive MUST be set up to only run if if receives a START command. It should not take off running simply because it receives a 10 vdc speed signal. Until you get this part right, you will continue to have problems.

i have two identical projects


the old one use PRC1 from GEMAVOLSRATIVC and also connected to AC drive ALTIVAR

The new one use Optimove 1 from ITWGEMA and also connected to AC drive ALTIVAR

I think the ITWGEMA is the new name for GEMAVOLSTATIC


i made a comoprasion between them


at the power up for the old one the anlaog output signal is zero voltage as the motor at the rest when we push start key then the motor run , which is the normal case

at the power up for the new one the anlaog output signal is 10 vdc so if we power up the optimove 1 the motor rotate automatically without push start key


so i think the different only at the anlog output why it is high at the power up for the new one , and i think there is no problem for 3A & 3 B and there is no different between them at theold one and the newe one

so i break the anlog output voltage not 3A and not 3B as the differen i think only at the analg sigal at the power up only , as i prevent the analog output at the power up by ( a 24 vdc relay ) ( not 10 vdc relay ) then the motor does not move at the power up for the optimove 1 and all the sequence of the operation are well

but i found another problem as when i used the 24 vdc relay - as the activation signal for this 24 vdc realay come from optimove 1 as this signal at the power up is zero voltage - to prevent the analog output at the power up ,

as i found this 24 vdc relay is be : on- off-on-off...etc at the rest of the motor only but when the motor rotate there is no problem for this 24 vdc relay

so i want to prevent or to overcome the on -off - on - off for this realy at the rest of the motor only !!

is the solution to use solis state relay ??


or what ??


for example if there is a project contain proximty switch which may be sense twice at a secon and the output of this proximty must go to a realy what is the type of this relay or what the solution as the industyrial system make the proximty switch must be sense twice at a second ??? ,

i think my problem is very similar to the example of the proximty switch must be sense twice at a second !!


or i must break 3A and 3B not break or prevent the analog output voltage ??

but as i told before all the sequence of the operation worked very well except the problem for this relay


wait for your co-operation

thanks

At the power up for the new one the anlaog output signal is 10 vdc, so if we power up the optimove 1, the motor rotates automatically without push start key

So i think the differenence is only at the anlog output: why it is high at the power up for the new one, and i think there is no problem for 3A & 3 B and there is no different between them at theold one and the newe one

Click to expand...

Here we would say that you have a safety concern. If the drive can start without getting a Start command, then a safety problem exists, regardless of how the old one was or how the new one is.

You need to ask the Optimove manufacturer: How is the Start command to the drive given? If there is NO Start command, and the drive CAN start anytime it gets a 10 volt signal, then it should be changed.

1. Either a new Start command must be created,
2. or the Optimove must be reprogrammed to provide a drive Start,
3. or you need different equipment.

Drives can be configured to act in different ways. On some, the signal follower can be reversed, so that it runs full speed at 0 volts. Definitely the Altivar must be programmed to only run when it gets a START command.

QUESTION: Who set up (programmed) the new Altivar drive, and is it exactly the same as the old one?

QUESTION: Are there jumper wires across the RUN terminals on your drive to make it start as soon as it gets a speed signal?

magdyfayad said:

at the power up for the new one the anlaog output signal is 10 vdc so if we power up the optimove 1 the motor rotate automatically without push start key

Click to expand...

That can only happen if the drive is receiving a direction signal as well as a speed command. You really need to break the direction command to ensure that the drive will not run, no matter what happens with the speed signal

magdyfayad said:

so i think the different only at the anlog output why it is high at the power up for the new one , and i think there is no problem for 3A & 3 B and there is no different between them at the old one and the new one

Click to expand...

You should test this with a volt meter. You should read zero volts across the drive run (or FWD) terminals when the command is asserted, and you should read some voltage present when the command is not asserted. Compare the two projects behavior of the direction terminals at power up to ensure that your above assumptions are correct.

magdyfayad said:

but i found another problem as when i used a relay to prevent the analog output at the power up , i found this relay is be : on- off-on-off...etc at the rest of the motor only as when the motor rotate there is no problem for this relay

so i want to prevent or to overcom the on -off - on - off for this realy at the rest of the motor !!

Click to expand...

What powers the coil of this relay...actually, once you get the root cause fixed, it will become unnecessary...

magdyfayad said:

is the solution to use solis state relay ??

Click to expand...

Not in my opinion

magdyfayad said:

or i must break 3A and 3B not break or prevent the analog output voltage ??

Click to expand...

YES! Break the direction command, and the drive will ignore the speed signal. Preferrably, you can figure out what is wrong with the device that is presently connected to the direction command terminals and not need an extra relay.