I have to say this

This is basically a rant more or less.

I do not get it, how do some of these people get their jobs?

Seems every day that many need to complete the HNC cert, but trying to do it while in a real world enviroment. To be more explicit, many so called engineers ask simple HNC type questions while trying to accomplish a real world application.

Many of these people are engineers but have no idea how to locate info/manuals or ask a question properly.

I have to thank GOD that I do not need a job, but would be nice if I could find more of this kind of work to pass the time.

I am not an engineer but after the years of being here I wonder why I am not.

I feel your pain.

Have to admit sometimes the level of question to the job it appears someone has responsbility for is frightening.

I do feel quite a lot of times as well that difficulties occur for some asking questions when English is not their first language and perhaps they are asking via an on-line translator.

Pick a language you don't know and try to construct a nice technical question and understand the answer.

It has to be difficult.

One possibility

As companies become leaner and leaner, everyone has to do more and more. Often times they are assigned duties that they don't have the knowledge or training to accomplish.

So....
They know that saying they can't do it, may mean that they are the next in line for the ax. So they make an effort, give it they're best shot, which is often much less than adequate, they don't know where to look for manuals etc...
So they do what they're used to doing, they search the web, and end up here or someplace like it.

Then....
You can tell by the content of the questions, that they don't have a clue. Depending on the individual and how they respond to the Q & A's here, they may get a lot of help, or we may ignore them because it's obvious that they will never grasp the concept of programming.

Working as a teacher I can say language (most of the times) has nothing to do with it. I'm a Dutch speaking trainer training Dutch speaking pupils and yet I have to second Ron's statement. I sometimes think it's just plain and simple lazyness.

Here on the forum I normally don't find it very difficult to separate the ones with language difficulties from the ones mentioned by Ron. Of course, from time to time I can misjudge people, so I tend not to react as swiftly as I used to in the past.

Kind regards,

I think the problem is not language according to Rsdoran.Except it He is referring to knowledge adequacy of engineers.

rsdoran said:

I am not an engineer but after the years of being here I wonder why I am not.

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You don't need to be an engineer to be a Subject Matter Expert.
In my 15 years of experience, I have definitely learned (mostly the hard way) that experience counts a lot more than a lot of people give credit for - especially new engineers.

All engineers have to start somewhere.

When I started, the market was lean and I took a job for a fraction of what I am making now at a small company. I was the only controls guy there, so I had no one to question. I look back at some of the things I did then out of ingorance and shudder.

I really wish I had this resource back then.

In the years since, I have definitely learned there is no correlation beteween level of education, intelligence, and competence.

I'm 28 years old. I've got a bachelor's degree, and have been working in automation for 7 years now. Speaking from personal experience, especially from my time in college, a lot of younger technicians and engineers seem to have become spoiled by the "I want it now!" mentality. They don't want to take the extra ten minutes to crack a manual or do a Google search to try and find the answer. A lot of the guys in my college classes were genuinely annoyed when they had to any research. They apparently were under the impression that every piece of information they needed for a project, paper, job, or whatever was just supposed to be handed over on a silver tray, removing the need to waste their precious time looking something up.

Just goes to show how little formal credentials and titles are worth. And that's true for most fields.

Human Resource Departments that base their hiring practices entirely on formal credentials deserve what they get. And often, what they get is conspicuously poor.

(I might be showing a little bitterness here)

Having spent almost 7 years in engineering school, I have to agree with Joe's comments. In my 5 years in the workforce, I have found that most of what I do (I'd say at least 90%) has been learned through experience on-the-job... playing with spare PLCs, reading manuals, reading this forum, and probably most of all, working with experienced electricians and technicians. I can tell you that this latter point is grossly underemphasized in engineering education, at least in the U.S. The attitude seems to be that if you stick it out through college and get that sacred piece of paper, then at that point you know everything you need to know to conquer any project you come across. YOU will be the one teaching those lowly electricians, not the other way around. I know that sounds silly but it truly is the prevailing mentality from many professors and administrators, at least in my experience.

-John

I do not get it, how do some of these people get their jobs?

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I often wonder the same!
Alot of times I think, or at least hope, it is people outside the realm of their normal job.

As far as engineers go, New Engineers Know Nothing.
That has always been the case. They are like doctors out of med. school, they need more training.

The others are just plain lazy, and it is sad!!!

Human Resource Departments that base their hiring practices entirely on formal credentials deserve what they get. And often, what they get is conspicuously poor.

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I know exactly what you mean!!



This whole topic reminds me of a recent conversation I had about electrical engineering school. It is possible, and is done all the time, to get an EE degree and know nothing about electricity above 5V. They may as well re-label the degree to electronics engineering because that is what 90% of it is anyway.

In the UK we have what is called chartered engineers and some companies advertise chartered only or someone working towards being chartered.

This traditionally has been a bit of a club and you have to do some sort of thesis to become chartered and you must have a formal degree to even try.

Apart from one chartered engineer that I have known, all the rest I've come across are less than useless, they can write a good theory of a job but cannot do one.

You can tell I don't have a degree.


Parkey will know one, a certain Mr.T from Harlesden or 'Shakey' as we called him. We let him do a HV switching plan once (as he was as qualified to do the job as the other two of us) when we were replacing a 11KV sub. We had a laugh after counting the dead, not funny really though, if we were not there to check there would have been casualties.

That chartered club must be like the PE thing here in the states. I too do not have my bachelors degree. I have been in electronics going on 38 years now. I do everything from project concept to sweeping the debris up after I work on the panel I am currently building. One of my most favorite things to do is pin the ears back on receint COLLEGE GRADUATEs with an ENGINEERING DEGREE. I do mostly variable speed drive and process controls. Lately PLCs and HMIs are gaining favor and that is why I came here. One of the guru's at my company told me this was the place to learn. As always, his advice proved helpful.

I have found most older engineers at the companies I have to deal with do not care about the bachelor's degree as my company's reputation for providing service is why I am there in the first place. When I get asked if I am qualified to do the job, I know I am dealing with a young one full of themselves. The ones that actually can do the job usually don't question my capabilities. They get right into a good discussion of the reason why I am there and what I feel is necessary to correct things.

I did a 2 year stint teaching at a notorious tech school. Part of why I left was I was tired of being told by the students I had to give them an "A" because they paid their tuition. When I said that tuition gave them the privlidge of setting in my classroom and the grade they get was directly proportional to the level of effort they put into the class. When they began to disrupt class and threaten to quit, management, always under the gun to reduce the drop out rate, said it was my job to keep the students in class. It did not take long until I was with my present company. Too many young folks coming out of school have been passed along so the teachers did not have to deal with the rowdy ones. The IN-ability to read on a high school level of many in their 20's amazes me. Then there is the comprehension problem to go along with that can't read problem.

Then they take their substandard high school education and go to college. I see this is part of why Ron's ranting. I feel your pain Ron and I don't see it getting any better any time soon.

I hire a lot of young engineers, and that is what I prefer. I also work with a lot of engineers from all over the country, including some very large and prestigious engineering firms. I am in full agreement with Ron's feelings. I may be getting old and crochety, but the quality of engineering has steadily decreased.

I thnk there are three fundamental problems.

First, very few youngsters entering the profession have experience with manual labor or working with their hands as mechanics or carpenters or such. That may seem trite, but I am convinced that working with your hands at an early age (certainly pre-college) teaches ways of thinking and understanding cause-effect relationships that you simply can't get any other way.

Second, the educational system stresses the concept that there is a right answer to a problem and it is in a book somewhere. They don't seem to understand that engineering is a problem solving discipline, not a body of knowledge. I think engineers should be able to use fundamental principles and logical thinking to find solutions to problems that have never been encountered before, and therefore the answers are obviously not going to be in any book.

Third, there seems to be a mindset that life in general should be lived trouble free. This shows up as the laziness mentioned above, and in the unwillingness to take risks and make decisions, and in an unwillingness to make mistakes and learn from them, and in an aversion to discipline in the sense of a rigorous approach to problem solving. Many projects seem to have more thought put into litigation avoidance and risk management than into the technical considerations that should be an engineer's fundamental focus.

I am optimistic, though. Many young engineers are eager and willing to learn, and given the right encouragement and guidance they develop into true professionals. They will stand out in the future (and I think we have one example of that contributing to this forum.)

So, as I get off my soapbox I throw a challenge out to those of us a "little long in the tooth" in this field. Are you doing anything to help bring the young engineers along? Do you encourage them to make mistakes and take lessons from them? Do you teach them how to think, or just how to do the immediate tasks? Many of the things I mention above are manifestations of our general society.

Years ago it was taken for granted that entry level engineers came with some of the required skills, not just the requisite factual knowledge. This is no longer the case, so are you doing things required to teach the rookies you encounter how to solve problems and advance the technology, or are you just shaking your head in dismay and avoiding the knuckleheads?