Upgrading Wonderware

[johnd_125]

I did a standalone Wonderware application some 15 years ago and recently the customer has decided to upgrade.

So, last Oct. I got a quote for a new Development Studio 2012R2 for $6225 and a 500 Tag 2012R2 Historian for no extra.

Time dragged on and approval didn't come until after the 1st of 2014. My WW distributor then said there were price increases. His quote was outdated, so he had an "out".

Now, he is proposing a Development Studio 2014 for $6225 (same price as 2012R2) but now he's saying the WW Historian has been split apart and must be purchased separately for $3109. I'm not real sure the Historian is even needed but he says I can't wait and buy it later. If I want it, I have to get it now.

Does what he's telling me sound correct?
Are there other, easily used historical data utilities that I could add to this system later on, if needed? I would prefer to stay with Wonderware....

Thanks, in advance.

 

[Paullys50]

What are you historical needs? You can use the native InTouch data logger for historical trends, granted it stores them in a proprietary format, and I wouldn't log more than a few months of data with it. For small systems it works just fine if you just need to review trends here and there.

Why can't you buy historian later? They are independent software packages that doesn't make any sense.

 

[diat150]

you should tell him thanks but no thanks and take your business elsewhere. other companies have better products, support, and wont bend over a repeat customer like he is trying to do with you.

 

[Bit_Bucket_07]

Did the existing application implement Historian? Many, if not most stand alone apps would not. Historical Trending is a native function of the InTouch software. You have many data storage and retrieval options without using a Historian database. Historian is a better fit for an enterprise level system than for a standalone app.

 

[NetNathan]

I have used the embedded Intouch historical logging for a long time.
It is very solid and I have used it for logging over 8,000+ tags on a Standard Dell Precision or even an Optiplex with no issue.

It has a very good compression routine, so the size per day is not very big, IF you pay attention to the next paragraph..

You will want to make sure any floating point tags you are logging are set for only the required "Log Deadband". For example if the tag is only required to have a readability of 0.1 indication, set "Log Deadband" on the tag to 0.1. It will then log every 0.1 change.
By default the "Log Deadband" is 0 meaning any change will be recorded. On a floating point tag with "Log Deadband" set to "0" the hard drive light will never stop, because you are logging a change of 0.000001 or greater, depending on what the resolution of the PLC is. And your log file will potentially be rather large for each day.

In Intouch I set up the log files to be "Stored in Specific Directory" named "Log History". This is done from the Configure>Historical Logging tab. Where you "Enable Historical Logging". If you do not set a directory, or the directory does not exist, the history is saved to the root of the drive (C:\--If the Intouch app is under C:\).
Also, if you are required to keep the log files for a long period of time, set "Keep Log Files for" "0" days. This way they will never be deleted by Intouch.

Each day you will have (DateTime).idx and a (DateTime).lgh file built. The *.idx is an index file for the *'lgh file, so they must stay together when backing up the "Log History" folder.

Most of my customers like the proprietary format, because it cannot be edited. Which is a requirement for the Aerospace/Aviation industry.

 

[cjd1965]

WW Historian has been split apart and must be purchased separately for $3109.

I just been quoted around £8000 UK for 1000 point factorytalk historian SE license so yours sounds cheap

 

[johnd_125]

Why can't you buy historian later? They are independent software packages that doesn't make any sense.

That's what I would like to know. The "buy it now if you EVER think you will want it" sounds like sales pressure, to me.

Its been a long time since I worked on the original application but the Historical Data manager is running on the machine. I seem to remember we started using some SPC functions and that required interface to the historical data, hence the need for Historian.

 

[Bit_Bucket_07]

That's what I would like to know. The "buy it now if you EVER think you will want it" sounds like sales pressure, to me.

Its been a long time since I worked on the original application but the Historical Data manager is running on the machine. I seem to remember we started using some SPC functions and that required interface to the historical data, hence the need for Historian.

Historical Data Manager is not Historian. HistData merely selectively coverts trend history logs to .csv files. It is included with a basic InTouch package. I suspect that you have no need for Historian.

 

[johnd_125]

Good point, thanks.

I can go look at the current application, within an hour. How can I tell, for 100% sure, whether Historian is currently being used?

 

[baldone]

I did a standalone Wonderware application some 15 years ago and recently the customer has decided to upgrade.

So, last Oct. I got a quote for a new Development Studio 2012R2 for $6225 and a 500 Tag 2012R2 Historian for no extra.

Time dragged on and approval didn't come until after the 1st of 2014. My WW distributor then said there were price increases. His quote was outdated, so he had an "out".

Now, he is proposing a Development Studio 2014 for $6225 (same price as 2012R2) but now he's saying the WW Historian has been split apart and must be purchased separately for $3109. I'm not real sure the Historian is even needed but he says I can't wait and buy it later. If I want it, I have to get it now.

Does what he's telling me sound correct?
Are there other, easily used historical data utilities that I could add to this system later on, if needed? I would prefer to stay with Wonderware....

Thanks, in advance.

Ouch.....I can get a full blown 4000 tag Indusoft Development and Runtime with 5 drivers that includes one secure thin client and one web client for about $2,600.00.

You can use either the native datalogging or SQL or whatever ODBC you wish included in the price.

 

[Bit_Bucket_07]

Good point, thanks.

I can go look at the current application, within an hour. How can I tell, for 100% sure, whether Historian is currently being used?

I doubt that you'd find evidence within the InTouch application. You said that this was a standalone system. If Historian is being used, then it would have to be installed and running on the HMI workstation. Otherwise, it would have to reside on another server. Does "standalone" mean that the HMI workstation only communicates with PLCs, or are there data-logging functions taking place on another networked computer?

 

[johnd_125]

When Historian is activated, it starts up Historical Data Manager.

Within the Intouch application there is a screen where scripts are set up to go to the InSQL database and building reports and writing csv files. I had to see it before I remembered that "I" did it.

If I was starting from scratch I probably wouldn't choose WW, but with an application setting there, ready to migrate up, I hope I can save a lot of development time by sticking with WW.

 

[NetNathan]

Is it the Historical Data Manager that is running or "HistData".
Histdata is part of building *.csv files from the internal Intouch History logs.

 

[johnd_125]

Historical Data Manager is running and the application is building csv files from the historical data and storing them on a networked server.

Thanks for all the help.