Off Topic: Reinventing the wheel

I've just read an article in a PC magazine whereby the Holy Grail of a defence against buffer overflow problems (one of the main means of Hacker attacks) is about to be realised in the next-generation 64-Bit CPUs.

Memory areas are to be divided into code and data areas and it will not be possible for code to be executed in data areas, so rendering buffer overflows harmless.

Such is progress, the DEC PDP11 computers with which I worked in 1970, when I started in the Process Control field, had exactly this feature - and now 35 years later it's the New Jerusalem.

I wonder when we'll come up with an education system which teaches students to take account of knowledge which is already long in the public domain. While there is no doubt that the major breakthroughs are almost always made by people under ~35, who don't blindly hold to the old conventions, this continuous reinvention of the wheel is an enormous waste of resources.

I doubt that that the old computer you used had separate areas to defend against hacker attacks. In the intervening 25 years until broadband became common, it would have been a waste of resources. Old ideas often get re-applied to new problems.

I also believe that the no execute flag is a little more sophisticated than that on the DEC.

That was the first step of my post on how to build a PLC controlled hot-dog machine: http://www.plctalk.net/qanda/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10278&highlight=academic.

I haven't been out of school long, but going back to "the lab" floors me sometimes. What is this disconnect between academics and the real world? Universities suffer from serious case of "Not-Invented-Here." The instructors actually encourage the students not to work outside the box, too.

I understand the motivation for teaching things "the hard way" first. But, at some point you've got to turn to the class and say "Remember that ugly OP-Amp circuit you spent weeks troubleshooting? Now that you understand it, here it is in a DIP pacakge! And, here's the datasheet, with a circuit diagram." After the riot has calmed down, the students should realize they're not working in total isolation.

AK

akreel said:

That was the first step of my post on how to build a PLC controlled hot-dog machine: http://www.plctalk.net/qanda/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10278&highlight=academic.

I haven't been out of school long, but going back to "the lab" floors me sometimes. What is this disconnect between academics and the real world? Universities suffer from serious case of "Not-Invented-Here." The instructors actually encourage the students not to work outside the box, too.

I understand the motivation for teaching things "the hard way" first. But, at some point you've got to turn to the class and say "Remember that ugly OP-Amp circuit you spent weeks troubleshooting? Now that you understand it, here it is in a DIP pacakge! And, here's the datasheet, with a circuit diagram." After the riot has calmed down, the students should realize they're not working in total isolation.

AK

Click to expand...

Tell me about it!

I just finished building a 2x4 decoder (for my Digital Design class) with only inverters and AND gates when this is available as a ready made chip. The instructor (who is really very good) explained that this was to give the students experience in troubleshooting their own circuits. I could understand that somewhat but I have been troubleshooting circuits for over 20 years now.

Right now it is more frustrating doing all the wiring especially with deadlines that are work related. (We are gearing up for the PMMI which starts Nov 7 and I still have to write 2 programs for the machines we are putting in the show) And I have a rather large program due on Monday in my Java Programming class that I have not even started yet. Who needs sleep? AAAHHHHHHH! I am pulling my hair out!! There. I feel better now.

Other than that, school is doing fine.

testsubject said:

Other than that, school is doing fine.

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I finished classes for the FE/EIT exam last week. The test is the 30th, and I can't believe how much I've forgotten from school!

Good luck with your classes! Keep us posted on any cool details.

AK

So the FE exam is the first step in getting the PE license, correct?

From what I remember, the Fundamentals of Engineering [FE]/Engineering In Training [EIT] exam is the first exam. I believe you need to then work for x amount of years and then take the PE exam.

Bob

Edit I think x = 4 or 5

That sounds about right. I think I was told the same thing at the beginning of this semester. So I have something else to look forward to in the next couple of years...

I doubt that that the old computer you used had separate areas to defend against hacker attacks. In the intervening 25 years until broadband became common, it would have been a waste of resources. Old ideas often get re-applied to new problems.

Click to expand...

I certainly wasn't trying to imply that this was the reason for dividing the memory in this way, simply stating that DEC had used this system of dividing memory into program and data areas (as part of their overall architecture design) 30+ years ago.

Come to think of it, if Motorola had won the chip battle against Intel with the 68000 (which had a very similar general architecture to the PDP11, although I don't know if it had the divided memory areas) the PC would have taken over from the PLC about ten years ago, as this was a processor with multiple interrupt levels, designed from the start for genuine multi-processing.

Like the VHS - Betamax battles, this was another case of good advertising beating good quality. Oh, I nearly forgot to mention it, the Apple Macintosh used the 68000 - you see what I mean.

RMA said:

the Apple Macintosh used the 68000

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So did the Atari STe, the Atari TT and Falcon used the 68030 processor.

God, that takes me back....

Paul

testsubject said:

So the FE exam is the first step in getting the PE license, correct?

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Yes, it is. I'm planning to take the PE in spring, if all goes well.

The question I have is: other than being the first (expensive) step in getting the PE license, what does the FE do for me?

If the answer is "nothing," why not combine the two and make the PE test 16 hours long? Am I thinking too much like an engineer?

AK

akreel said:

Yes, it is. I'm planning to take the PE in spring, if all goes well.

The question I have is: other than being the first (expensive) step in getting the PE license, what does the FE do for me?

If the answer is "nothing," why not combine the two and make the PE test 16 hours long? Am I thinking too much like an engineer?

AK

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Likeb Bob O said, you are supposed to wait 4-5 years after taking the FE to take the PE to get the needed experience in your chosen field to qualify as a professional. If you are like me, you already have many years of experience in doing what you do. I also plan on taking the PE as soon as I can after taking the FE. (Which at the rate I am going won't be until fall of 2007 at the earliest.)

Likeb Bob O said, you are supposed to wait 4-5 years after taking the FE to take the PE to get the needed experience in your chosen field to qualify as a professional.

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The 4-5 years part is right, but it does not have to be after the FE is passed. Educators recommend taking the FE right out of school so the process will be easier (less forgotten stuff about thermo... ).

So in theory, one could take the FE this week, and the PE next week provided they had the requisite experience.

If I am not mistaken, the 4-5 years must be under a PE (not necessarily directly). That part could've changed, though.

Chip

I went about it the recommended way - EIT (that is what it was when I took it) in college, waited 5 years (while working under a PE), then took my PE exam.

If I remember correctly, on your application for the PE, you need recommendations from existing PE registrants. Most states are similar ... check with the licensing board of your state to determine how and when to take the respective exam.

But what I have found, my PE license is nothing more than a piece of paper and bragging rights. None of my past employers have required it, and I have not received better compensation for having it. But they do like the bragging rights as well and will typically pay for the fees and taxes that go along with the license.

PE licensure is primarily for the A/E field (architectural and engineering firms). The PE allows you to "stamp" drawings and makes you liable for design - and YOU can be sued for faulty design. So bascially I have mine for personal goals.

testsubject:

I think I had the same lab class when I took digital circuits at UIC in 1986... I still have my breadboard, chips and LED's... Call me if you need a few spare nand gates .

I took my EIT at the end of college but never followed up w/ the PE. People ask me if the certificate on my wall is real because it reads Expires: Indefinately.

At my first place of employment we worked on contracts for Transit Vehicle doors and they were required to have a PE on staff. Since then I've worked for a Machine Tool OEM and now a distributor. If I do go and test for the PE, it will be for my own personal satisfaction.

Hey test, maybe we can take it together....What's the fee up to now?