Ethernet

Alan Case

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Hi, Just as a matter of interest, what is the theory of industrial IP addresses. In stand alone installs I tend to use 192.168.210.? but i have seen 10.0.0.? and a lot of others. Any ideas on this.
Regards Alan Case
 
Alan,

What both IP adresses you mentioned have in common is that they are "private" IP addresses, that are not routed to the internet.

The ranges are:
Class A 10.0.0.0 - 10.255.255.255
Class B 172.16.0.0 - 172.31.0.0
Class C 192.168.0.0 - 192.168.255.0
 
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Mellis has got it. Most companies use the private ranges on their internal LAN. Larger organizations may choose the Class A range because it offers the largest number of IP addresses.
 
More Detail. Application

Most of my customers use 192.168.?.? where the first ? is the machine number and the second ? is the IP address within the machine center.

There should be a router that isolates each machine center from the rest of the network. This is very important when using Ethernet/IP. Seldom is there any need for one machine to know what another machine is doing. I know that there are often 5 of our products per machine center and each of them is producing status data at a very high rate. A router must isolate these packets to the local machine centers otherwise the whole network will be overloaded and there will be delays due to collisions.

I have never heard of any place that has 250+ machine centers and 250+ IP nodes per machine center.
 
Peter Nachtwey said:
I know that there are often 5 of our products per machine center and each of them is producing status data at a very high rate. A router must isolate these packets to the local machine centers otherwise the whole network will be overloaded and there will be delays due to collisions.

This is only true if you use lots of hubs or archaic ethernet technologies. A modern switched ethernet network can have all the local 'machine centers' on the same IP subnet without a problem.

I think you are misunderstanding collisions. At the lowest level of the TCP/IP protocol is the hardware level. This is where all the nitty gritty details such as voltage level and signal encoding happen. Ethernet exists partially at this level.

In it's original form, ethernet used common media for all nodes on the network. A collision would happen when two nodes on the network tried to simeotaneously submit messages across the shared medium rendering both messages useless. The collision would be detected and both nodes would use an algorithm that determined a random wait period before trying to re-transmit. This worked fine as long as netowrk traffic wasn't heavy or there weren't too many nodes on the network. During heavy usage periods, ethernet was prone to collision storms where lots of nodes were tyring to transmit at the same time, but very little data was being transferred. All the bandwidth was wasted on collisions.

Devices known as repeaters were used to regenerate a signal on an ethernet network when the shared medium became too long to successfuly transmit the message. Later hubs, also known as multi-port repeaters were used to plug a bunch of nodes into the same shared medium. Hubs and repeaters are layer 1 devices that simply repeat the signal. So every device on a hub recieves every message sent out by any node. The node must decide if the message was intended for it or not.

After ethernet was in use for a while, large shared medium networks were shown to be painfully slow because 'collision storms' during high network activity could bring an ethernet network to it's knees.

This introduced the concept of a bridge. A bridge was a two port device that was slightly more intelligent than a hub. A bridge could be inserted in between two hubs. It would analyze messages sent out from each hub (which could be connected to several nodes) and decide if the message was inteded for a node on the same port, or a node on the other port. It would only regenerate the message if the message was intended for a node on the other 'side of the bridge.' This created seperate collision domains and alllowed a way to be segment large networks that were succeptible to collison storms. Bridges are considered layer 2 devices that use the MAC or hardware encoded address of a node to determine which side of the bridge the message was intended for.

Later, the concept of a multi-port bridge, commonly known as a switch, was introduced. This greatly increased network performance. Each node attached to a switch was it's own collision domain, so it eliminated the possibility of collisions as long as only one node was attached to one port on the switch. This paved the way for full duplex 100 mbps ethernet.

This all worked fine for local networks, but what happens when one local network needs to be connected to another netowrk? This is where routers come in to play. Routers are devices that are intended to pass messages between different networks. They use the network address (IP address in TCP/IP) to determine if the message should be sent to another network or ignored and left to the local network to handle.

Modern managed high end switches can act as 'routers' on local networks by segmenting networks into Virtual LANs or VLANs. This way logical grouping of nodes can be accomplished as opposed to physical grouping of nodes.

and anyway, it's obvious that i've studied this **** too much and i'm going to shut up about it now.
 
Hi Monkeyhead. Rockwell Ethernet IP is a different animal, it multicasts on a 192.??? something or other address (cant remember off the top of my head). A normal switch when it sees this address knows that it is a multicast so it sends it out all ports. A router will limit this traffic but a better method is to use a IGMP enabled switch.
If you are in factory with IO on ethernet IP hook in and use something like Ethereal (free download). You will see the address of a lot of the packets as as 192???, even when the whole network might be on a 10.0.0 net. Regards Alan Case
 
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Seldom is there any need for one machine to know what another machine is doing.
?

????????????????????????????????????????????????????????:eek:

Just kidding Peter!!!

So Rockwell ethernet/ip always multicasts a 192.x.x.255 on any network, regardless of class, very interesting... I'm trying to subnet a Rockwell network right now, thanx for the tip!!!
 
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bulletin blues said:
So Rockwell ethernet/ip always multicasts a 192.x.x.255 on any network, regardless of class, very interesting... I'm trying to subnet a Rockwell network right now, thanx for the tip!!!
I think you'll find that the multicast addresses are in the 239.x.x.x range - there is a standard (or convention) for multicast.

For stand-alone systems (not connected to a plant-wide network), a standard switch is adequate. If not stand-alone, then a switch with IGMP snooping capability should be used to isolate the multicast traffic.

Tip: all IGMP snooping switches are not created equal. Some (e.g. Cisco) require a separate router to issue the IGMP queries (necessary for the switch to configure the multicast groups) while others (e.g. Hirschman) can do the queries themselves.
 
Bulletin, Not always a multicast, only if there is IO on the ethernet or produce/consume tags. I checked back through my documents and I was wrong about the multicast address. It is 239.192.?.? (any normal switch knows that a 239.192 is meant to go everywhere so it just shoots it out each port)
On the AB website knowledgebase look up application note A46234811.
This gives a good description of what happens.
Regards Alan
 
Alan Case said:
Rockwell Ethernet IP is a different animal, it multicasts

Aye... thought we were talking IP on Ethernet, not Rockwell's Ethernet/IP (couldn't they thought of a more unique name?).

I'm not too terribly fond of multi-casting applications.
 
Yea, I thought the 192.x.x.x multicast sounded a bit peculiar, thanx for chiming in Gerry.

I believe the answer to the original question is that a class A network will allow for the most flexibility.

Peter, I read and learn from every single one of your posts, and what you stated certainly makes complete sense, by each machine being on a different network, you limit the broadcast traffic and have the capability to manage the traffic between networks by utilizing a router. Sorry if I sounded a bit like a wise guy.

Let's not forget...

Class D (multicast) Addresses: 224-239.x.x.x
Class E (reserved) Addresses: 240-255.x.x.x

Monkeyhead, check out this site...http://www.odva.org/ the ethernet/ip stuff is a little bit different than what we've been learning. There are some informative downloads.

Good question Allen, I was just starting to dive into something, and I didn't even think of the ethernet/IP part of it. o_O

Thanx!!!
 
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