Quantum vs Premium

SNP · Feb 8, 2007

Few days ago I have got a project - big coal factory in Siberia. Estimated numer of IO points 3-4 thousands (maybe more). The signals are concetrated in big numbers in few points. Ethernet is a meadia to supply SCADA stations (3 local and 1 main).

I was told that Shneider Electric equipment will be used anyway. So I have a choise between Quantum and Premium platforms. In both cases high density modules will be used (64DI, 64 DO) with Telefasts terminators.

Would you be so kind to enlighten me about +'s and -'s of both platforms?

PS. Only Shneider Electric promises to deliver its equipment within 4 weeks (time is critical in this project). If I would find another brand name supplier (with even shorter delivery time) in Moscow then it would be interesting to look at alternative variant.

bradal · Feb 8, 2007

Sorry if this sounds insulting, I am not intending to.

I have never touched a program near 4000 I/O points, maybe 500......if I did, and had the choice of PLC's, I sure as heck wouldn't be relying on someone else telling me which way to go.

I would be doing my own research, and hell, talk directly to your PLC rep, I'm not talking your local city rep, that is country rep territory I would think.

You have the install cost, maintenance etc etc, any PLC manufacturer would be drooling.

My $0.02

Doug_Adam · Feb 8, 2007

I have used the Quantum previously in places with that amount of IO. The Ethernet cards work well, and I have generally used them with Citect SCADA, which is now owned by Schneider as well.
Most of the installations have had only around 1000 IO per CPU however.

I found the quantum to be a bit slow on the scan time when using Concept, but quite fast when using Proworx (984 ladder logic).
I have never used the Premium.

The Quantum is fine for process control type jobs, but needs a little bit of care if you are using it with Concept programming for machine positioning type jobs (stacking and production line). Best to get a a 486 or 586 based CPU for these.

The Premium I believe is optomised for the production line type environment, and it is supposed to have fast scan times. I have no direct experience of this, so I won't comment on it further.

My guess is that both types of PLC should be able to do the job, the only question would be how much IO you could stick on each CPU.

My guess is that if you were to use the Quantum, you could safely do the job with around 3 CPUs of the 486 or 586 variety.

Hope this helps,

Doug

SNP · Feb 8, 2007

bradal said:
Sorry if this sounds insulting, I am not intending to.

I have never touched a program near 4000 I/O points, maybe 500......if I did, and had the choice of PLC's, I sure as heck wouldn't be relying on someone else telling me which way to go.

I would be doing my own research, and hell, talk directly to your PLC rep, I'm not talking your local city rep, that is country rep territory I would think.

You have the install cost, maintenance etc etc, any PLC manufacturer would be drooling.

My $0.02

Thank you for a replay Bradal!

SNP · Feb 8, 2007

Doug_Adam said:
I have used the Quantum previously in places with that amount of IO. The Ethernet cards work well, and I have generally used them with Citect SCADA, which is now owned by Schneider as well.
Most of the installations have had only around 1000 IO per CPU however.

I found the quantum to be a bit slow on the scan time when using Concept, but quite fast when using Proworx (984 ladder logic).
I have never used the Premium.

The Quantum is fine for process control type jobs, but needs a little bit of care if you are using it with Concept programming for machine positioning type jobs (stacking and production line). Best to get a a 486 or 586 based CPU for these.

The Premium I believe is optomised for the production line type environment, and it is supposed to have fast scan times. I have no direct experience of this, so I won't comment on it further.

My guess is that both types of PLC should be able to do the job, the only question would be how much IO you could stick on each CPU.

My guess is that if you were to use the Quantum, you could safely do the job with around 3 CPUs of the 486 or 586 variety.

Hope this helps,

Doug

Thank you Doug!

As for Schneider Electric then I used Mometum's in my previous project. So I'm familiar with Concept and from this point of view I prefer Quantum. Premium platform doesn't work with Concept and I hate to learn new software.

Though as I have learned Quantum is a bit more expensive. So I need good arguments for decision-makers to prove that Quantum is a better solution.

Sergei.

Jim Dungar · Feb 8, 2007

Quantum is the process control offering from Schneider. It has the highest density I/O cards and it is designed for servicing remote(distributed) I/O. The currently preferred software is Unity and ProWorx32 although I believe Concept is still available. Many third party vendors have built specialty modules for the Quantum platform

Premium is their machine control platform. I don't think it has very high density on its I/O especially the analog cards. It was never designed for true remote I/O although some version is now available. Its preferred software is Unity and PL-7.

SNP · Feb 8, 2007

Jim Dungar said:
Quantum is the process control offering from Schneider. It has the highest density I/O cards and it is designed for servicing remote(distributed) I/O. The currently preferred software is Unity and ProWorx32 although I believe Concept is still available. Many third party vendors have built specialty modules for the Quantum platform

Premium is their machine control platform. I don't think it has very high density on its I/O especially the analog cards. It was never designed for true remote I/O although some version is now available. Its preferred software is Unity and PL-7.

Thanks Jim!

Indeed Concept is available on my notebook. Your remark that Premium is not so good for remote I/O is very valuable.

I prefer Structured Text programs for PLCs. Maybe you (or somebody else) know about capabilities of Unity and PL-7 to write programms on ST language?

Regards!

Jim Dungar · Feb 8, 2007

Unity and PL-7 both have Structured Text. I believe the Unity version is based on the original Concept version of ST rather than the PL-7 version but I don't think it makes much difference.

SNP · Feb 8, 2007

Jim Dungar said:
Unity and PL-7 both have Structured Text. I believe the Unity version is based on the original Concept version of ST rather than the PL-7 version but I don't think it makes much difference.

Great! Local representatives of Schneider Electric here in Moscow are trying to sell namely Unity (along with Premium). So I'm a bit suspicious about their real intentions. From your answer I understand that it would be better for me to switch to Unity (from Concept). Moreover I don't pay my own money.

Many thanks Jim, you helped me to make a right decision.

leon78 · Feb 9, 2007

The biggest our Concept 2.5 SR2 project on the PLC Quantum 140CPU53414A (with Hot Standby) has 181 AI, 1347 DI, 589 DO, control of 120 valves, 60 pumps and funs, 9 big pumps (approximately 5..8MWt), 8 tanks with volume 20000m3.
I have never used the Premium.

SNP · Feb 9, 2007

leon78 said:
The biggest our Concept 2.5 SR2 project on the PLC Quantum 140CPU53414A (with Hot Standby) has 181 AI, 1347 DI, 589 DO, control of 120 valves, 60 pumps and funs, 9 big pumps (approximately 5..8MWt), 8 tanks with volume 20000m3.
I have never used the Premium.

Hi Leon!

The same blokes from Schender Electric headquaters in Moscow urged me to use namely Quantum controller along with Momentum's (37 pcs.) in my another project (tonnel on road Adler - Krasnaya Polyana). Then I told them that it would be enough to use only Momentum's to supply InTouch by all the data then they agreed with visible unpleasure.

But now my Scheider Electric friends urge me use namely Premium, not Quantum. It is suspicious. Maybe they wish to sell (I meant really 'pvarit') oblosete hardware?

For some 'political' consideration I have to work with Schneider Electric and having a choice between Quantum and Premium (and being suspicious as I have said) I seek arguments pro- and contra- for (against) both platforms.

If there is no a big difference between them then later or sooner one of them will die, but which one excatly?

leon78 · Feb 9, 2007

Contraarguments (only for me).
Quantum: no.
Premium: I have never used it

SNP · Feb 9, 2007

leon78 said:
Contraarguments (only for me).
Quantum: no.
Premium: I have never used it

I understand your counter-arguments. But the question has been just resolved. Premium won (in this project).

LadderLogic · Feb 9, 2007

Somehow I am under impression that only one PLC is to be used to control that much of equipment (I am not familiar with "coal factory" technology - did you mean a coal mine or a coal power plant?). Each one strikes me like a place where redundancy is mandatory, to say the least: a PLC failure would have extremely grave consequences.

Hope I am mistaken and we are talking about multiple PLCs tied to a redundant network with all necessary protections in place et cetera.

SNP · Feb 9, 2007

LadderLogic said:
Somehow I am under impression that only one PLC is to be used to control that much of equipment (I am not familiar with "coal factory" technology - did you mean a coal mine or a coal power plant?). Each one strikes me like a place where redundancy is mandatory, to say the least: a PLC failure would have extremely grave consequences.

Hope I am mistaken and we are talking about multiple PLCs tied to a redundant network with all necessary protections in place et cetera.

Of course LadderLogic, there will be several points for data aquisition. I meant coal refinenment plant (factory) just near existing coal mine. Now the mine delivers raw coal that is to be processes elsewhere. After mechanical refinement coal could be used in power plants directly. On each stage of refinement manual control would be possible and the system is designed to symplify it, prevent failures of equipment and so on.

I plan that nodes would contain no more than 512 I/O points each. And via MODBUS TCP senior dispatcher (along with local dispatchers) would be able to intefere, to optimise refinement scheme for example.

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