AB ethernet.

Hi.
Trying to get my head around the various versions of ethernet used at present by Rockwell.
Correct me if I am wrong.
ControlLogix family uses CIP through port 44818
SLC 505 (latest firmware) uses both CIP (port 44818) and CSPv4 (port 2222)
ML1100 uses CIP (port 44818)

Now for the problem

We use quite a few Kingfisher RTUs to transfer data around a radio network. Normally we transfer the data from the kingfisher to the Micrologix at each radio location via DF1 (the kingfisher supports DF1 half duplex mode)
At one station we cannot do this as it is a retrofit and the serial port of the Micrologix is already being used as a modbus master. The Kingfisher supports ethernet but their driver tries to utilise port 2222. Now Kingfisher have said they will rewrite the driver for us to use port 44818 but from my reading I think there is a lot needed as the ML1100 uses CIP not CSPv4.

Can someone give a brief laymens terms description of the differences or the problems involved.
Thank you for your time.
Alan

In short, I don't know and would have to ask.

You should have asked during the week when I could ask our Ethernet guru.

Do you want to know or does Kingfisher want to know? I would expect the Kingfisher software engineers to know the differences already. I know that it is not trivial by the time/money it cost to develop Ethernet/IP. We just got our 3rd generation of controllers Ethernet/IP certified. It took about two months to do that even though we have already got a previous 2nd generation product that is Ethernet/IP certified.

This will be expensive. Our Ethernet guru could give a list of differences but I am not sure all the difference would mean that much unless you are already familiar with Ethernet protocols.

I do know the differences is lots of $$$.

I am not a Micrologix 1100 user even I have on my wall, but here is what I know about ports and protocols:

Technote 29402:

TCP port 2222 - CSP (or PCCC). PLC5, SLCs and other older devices use it.

TCP an UDP port 44818 - CIP protocol over Ethernet called Ethernet Industrial Protocol or Ethernet/IP - all logix, newer PLC5s and SLCs and I guess MLX1100 as it supports CIP.

UDP port 2222 - CIP I/O control and producer/consumer as well as Ethernet/IP driver in RSlinx.

The Kingfisher supports ethernet but their driver tries to utilise port 2222.

Click to expand...

Based on the fact that port 2222 used I am pretty sure that Kingfisher uses CSP and I am not sure if MLX1100 supports it, I can ask Monday.
If MLX1100 can't speak CSP, then changing port to 44818 will not help, they will have to write Ethernet/IP (CIP) driver and this is a difficult task
But depending on their skills and resources it can be done.

Hi Peter. As far as I know the Kingfisher engineers are only a couple of people. From my conversations with them i dont think they are all that clued up on ethernet/IP.
Contr_Conn. I am sure also from my reading that the MLX1100 cannot speak CSP. The MLX1100 has a completely different data structure to the ControlLogix range of products that CIP usually speaks to so do you know if the older style protocol is somehow utilised or embedded into the CIP messsage so as the MLX1100 can understand it. Sorry if the above does not make much sense.
Regards Alan Case

do you know if the older style protocol is somehow utilised or embedded into the CIP messsage so as the MLX1100 can understand it.

Click to expand...

EDIT: CSP formatted message coming to port 44818 will be ignored.
You can send PLC5/SLC typed message over CIP, but whole handshaking and conversation must be in CIP format. They should be able to figure out how to open CIP session and send CIP message.

If they don't want to learn CIP, then here is a simple solution:
Send MSG from PLC5 or SLC to MLX and use sniffer to see handshaking.

I have to confirm on Monday that MLX1100 does not speak CSP, but based on data I found so far, I think this is true statement.

Alan Case said:

As far as I know the Kingfisher engineers are only a couple of people. From my conversations with them i dont think they are all that clued up on ethernet/IP.

Click to expand...

That will be a problem. Developing Ethernet/IP will be a serious burden for a small company to tie someone up for so long. I know.

I would start looking for other solutions.

The 1761-NET-ENI does not support the legacy CSP Ethernet protocol Answer
Summary: Rockwell Automation/Allen-Bradley Ethernet devices use two Ethernet protocols: EtherNet/IP and CSP. Newer devices, such as the Logix family devices, the 1761-NET-ENI and more recent PLC-5/xxE, 1785-ENET (PLC-5 Ethernet sidecar) and SLC-5/05 processors support the EtherNet/IP (also known as EPIC) protocol. Only the PLC-5/xxE, 1785-ENET (PLC-5 Ethernet sidecar), SLC-5/05 and 5820-EI (Pyramid Integrator Ethernet module) support the legacy CSP protocol.

The 1761-NET-ENI (ENI) does not support the CSP protocol.

If your device or program can not use the EtherNet/IP protocol, it can not talk to a device connected through an ENI. In addition, this means that the :v4 option for the IP address in RSLinx 2.41 (with hotfix 8) and higher to lock the protocol at CSP will not work with the ENI. If you use that option in the driver configuration, that driver will not be able to talk to the ENI and the device on its RS-232 port.
Catalog Number: 1761NETENI
DocFullNum: Q70149824

Since newer devices dont support csp and 1763 ML1100 is the newest ML you are probably SOL.

I verified that MicroLogix 1100 does not support CSP.
It supports CIP only.

If they can't figure out how to send CIP MSG, they can try to send multihop MSG from PLC5 to MLX1100 and capture data.
At this point they should be able to send same sequence from their device.
It will not make them Ethernet/IP comliant, but at least will deliver data to MLX.

Hi Contr_Conn.
I assume when you mention the PLC 5 you are also referring to the SLC505 with the multihop ability.
Regards Alan Case

Alan Case said:

Hi Contr_Conn.
I assume when you mention the PLC 5 you are also referring to the SLC505 with the multihop ability.
Regards Alan Case

Click to expand...

YES

Alan Case said:

Hi.
Trying to get my head around the various versions of ethernet used at present by Rockwell.
Correct me if I am wrong.
ControlLogix family uses CIP through port 44818
SLC 505 (latest firmware) uses both CIP (port 44818) and CSPv4 (port 2222)
ML1100 uses CIP (port 44818)
....
Can someone give a brief laymens terms description of the differences or the problems involved.
Thank you for your time.
Alan

Click to expand...

Did you ever get this combo to work?

In Alans situation I would change the ML1100 for a ML1400, which has 2 serial ports, with very little if any alteration to the program.

My question was leaning more towards "has anyone got a Kingfisher talking to a CompactLogix/ControlLogix over ethernet?"

My situation is that the serial port is being used and the only option we have is to communicate over ethernet. Basically the same as Alan original question, except changing the hardware is not an option.

Note, what Kingfisher say can be done and what ACTUALLY can be done are two different things!!!

I gave up in the end and used DF1 and the serial port.
I really doubt if it can be done.
A workaround is to put a modbus card into the compactlogix and talk modbus to the Kingfisher.
I am at the NHP Christmas party in Albury on Thursday night if you are going.
Regards Alan Case

Rolling your own ethernet ip product for a small company is a large undertaking as peter said. A better option for kingfisher may be to use something like anybus http://www.hms.se/products/embeddedindex.shtml

Which can be designed into their equipment and is alredy ethernet ip certified. Still not a simple process but this solution would cut the work by about 75%.

Once a anybus embeded solution is designed to your equipment you can support other protocols with out any more major hardware changes.

Just to cure my curiousity alan why kingfisher RTU's Vs a PAC like contrologix?