Question about europeen 220v ac

Jeff23spl

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Join Date
Jan 2010
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Canada
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Hello

I know your domestic power comes from 1 phase of your 400v 3ph + neutral but for domestic distribution and/or control panel control power, do you cut the neutral line with a double pole breaker or you use a single pole only on the live side ?

To my opinion it should be like here under 120vac cutting only the live one but i got request to open the neutral line also. Opening the neutral line here is dangerous because it remove the ground fault protection. I think the customer is confusing with our 240v comming from 2 summed 120vac vs neutral
 
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It is common to open both poles. European-style plugs are not polarized so strictly speaking no one can be sure which of the two poles is hot and which is neutral - assume either.
 
Depends of earthing system. If TNC or TN-C-S or TN-S, we do not cut the neutral line. So it is probably TT or IT...
 
When the input line is mounted without connector you are allowed to use one pole, however when it is a safetyfuse or to disconnect some part (usually t is) then you must switch both parts (The ground is a separate wire and should not be switched).
for safety switch both wires. This isolates the circuit
In control it should be done too, as just to b sure the circuit is broken and isolated. so please use double switches at all times.
(and yes the Null is close to ground, but should not be used as)
 
ok i got it because you can reverse a plug and cut the ground while keeping the line live and get an electric shock...
I have read also and the only case where we can't cut neutral would be with a TN-C installation where neutral and ground is a common wire. Cutting the neutral would also cut the ground and it is not allowed.


Here is very different because we have the usual 120v from a center tap transformer giving 120+120 where neutral is the middle tap also connected to ground.
So their is a risk of voltage inbalance (Ex 160-80) if the center tap doesn't follow thru to reach the load and the 240v distribution **** to the lightest side.
 
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I rarely use two pole circuit breakers here i Sweden (Europe). In almost every home you only have one pole breakers. Maybe you can be more specific to what you will use the information we give you?
 
shooter,
The very main reason is earthing arrangement. In TN-C system it is strictly forbidden to cut neutral, as it is also earthing! If you cut PEN, then circuit could be closed through human touching the exposed parts to the ground!
 
for control cabinet i never brake neutral. in cabinet you always know which one is live wire and i cut just line power, unless i use neutral from UPS. in household installation the principle same, cause you know which one is live wire when wire are connected. what you doesn't know is which is live in the appliance but that doesn't matter (disconnect is made in plug - not in appliance.
as for short-circuit neutral and ground, in my country regulations for household installations dictates use of FID, therefore ground and neutral are always separated. in cabinets however i avoid FID and short-circuit them.
 
Well you state it is for many use, then there is also many solutions. In a control cabinet you can either break all three phases and the neutral or you can break the phases and not the neutral. I think the most common way is to break all incoming wires (exept PE ofcourse).

I don't know what FID means but I assume you meen a Residual Current Device?
What I don't understand is that you short-circuit the Neutral and PE? Or do I not understand what you ment? You meen that if you have five wires to the cabinet (L1,L2,L3,N and PE) you short circuit the N and PE? This to me is a absolute dangerous thing to do, never go from TN-S to TN-C system. In Sweden (and I guess in the whole europe) this is not allowed.
 
balash,
In your country (Croatia), RCD (FID) is not dictated everywhere. For example, I have house in Zadar (Croatia), and there, as I have only 4 wires from electricity company, is TNC, which is afterwards converted to TN-C-S in metering panel. And you can absolutely install RCD in TNC earthing arrangement, but you need to take care and connect all neutral wires on output side, and only supply neutral to input side.
 
rQx,

Conversion of TN-C to TN-C-S is quite normal, in fact it is one of 5 standardized earthing systems, and it is predominant in most of Europe. It is done, by rule, in incoming/metering panel.
 
Jeff23spl,

I had exported quite much electrical panels outside my country, and from that experience I've realised that:
1. I'm never sure what earthing system to expect.
2. From time to time I will have problems with missing neutral. This sounds strange, but yes it happens, especially in countries outside of Europe, like in Middle East and Africa. When this happens I have automaticly 1,73 bigger voltage at equipment installed in cubicle.

Solution was to install incoming transformer 400/230 (with +5% and -5% taps) to 230V for command line. If supply is like in my country (400V), we will connect 2 phases to 400V input, if supply is 110V or 120V, we will connect 2 phases to 230V input. After that I use classical MCBs without neutral pole.
 
I know goghi, but I said you can never go from TN-S to TN-C.

It was a comment to this:

" in cabinets however i avoid FID and short-circuit them."

Anyhow it is quite normal not to supply a controlcabinet with neutral. One reason is that you often use a transformer or power supply for your control circuit. One reason is that if you have a heavy load and thick cables, you save money.
 
A TN-C is not allowed to be used in any cabinet only at the incoming connector ofthe power cable from the utilities.
So at the main switch there is a split to Neutral and ground.
It is not allowed to ground a cabinetdoor by hanging it on the groundneutralline.
 

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