FactoryTalk Historian Purchase

I am looking to purchase FactoryTalk Historian. I am not proficient in the server environment (I know enough to be dangerous) so I wanted to know what licensing requirements I would need to set this system up. Talking to Rockwell, they only know Rockwell licensing. Talking to Microsoft, they only know Microsoft licensing. I think between these two they want me to purchase more licensing then what I need, so I wanted to see if anyone knew enough about BOTH to help me out. Here is what I'm trying to do:

-1 CPU with enough hardware to run 2 VMWare instances (so I don't have to purchase two seperate servers)
-250 point Historian Server on 1 instance of VMWare and VantagePoint Server on the other instance (do I need a concurrent or just a name-user license as I'm the only person that will be doing any editing)
-SQL and Excel add-ons so that I can do some custom queries of the archived information from Historian to VantagePoint
-Use VantagePoint as an HMI through the "Portal" to allow the end user to view trends and export that trend information to excel

In a nutshell, the end user must be able to select the tags provided to them from Historian into Vantage Point, develop the trends they want on the portal through IE/Firefox(with a little training from me ) then export them to excel for future use.

Any information would be greatly appreciated...sorry it was so long winded.

I can't answer your licensing question, but before you get too far into committing to this do yourself a gigantic colossal huge really really big favor and check out Inductive Automation's Ignition. Dive in and see what it can do, you'll be impressed. Did I mention that you would be doing yourself a really big favor?

(Not affiliated, just a user of both products, and one is considerably better than the other, guess which one.)

TConnolly said:

I can't answer your licensing question, but before you get too far into committing to this do yourself a gigantic colossal huge really really big favor and check out Inductive Automation's Ignition. Dive in and see what it can do, you'll be impressed. Did I mention that you would be doing yourself a really big favor?

(Not affiliated, just a user of both products, and one is considerably better than the other, guess which one.)

Click to expand...

+1

TConnolly said:

I can't answer your licensing question, but before you get too far into committing to this do yourself a gigantic colossal huge really really big favor and check out Inductive Automation's Ignition. Dive in and see what it can do, you'll be impressed. Did I mention that you would be doing yourself a really big favor?

(Not affiliated, just a user of both products, and one is considerably better than the other, guess which one.)

Click to expand...

+1

As much as I love Ignition, I will say that they are a little weak on the "Ad-Hoc" trending component. The "click to graph" adder is nice, but you don't get a true historian trend client experience out-of-the-box. For 80% of the world out there it will satisfy your needs, I'm just high-maintenance.

But, based on what you want to do, I know that for ~$13K you could get unlimited everything you need. No hassle of VMs, however a VM instance dedicated Ignition, and VM instance dedicated to SQL would be ideal, but not required. You could just do it all on one box to start with.

No fussing with CAL licensing

No fussing with tag limitations

No fussing with "portals"

No fussing with "concurrent" user licensing

No fussing with platforms (windows 7, windows 8, mac osx)

No fussing with multiple software platforms, installing them, configuring them, and making them all work.

Plus, put a Ignition in once, and you can pretty much do damn near anything you can dream of. So you've got nothing but creative freedom and time holding you back.

EDIT - Oh, instead of wasting your time on figuring out architecture, licensing, software requirements you could actually be getting stuff done

Paully's5.0 said:

+1

As much as I love Ignition, I will say that they are a little weak on the "Ad-Hoc" trending component. The "click to graph" adder is nice, but you don't get a true historian trend client experience out-of-the-box. For 80% of the world out there it will satisfy your needs, I'm just high-maintenance.

But, based on what you want to do, I know that for ~$13K you could get unlimited everything you need. No hassle of VMs, however a VM instance dedicated Ignition, and VM instance dedicated to SQL would be ideal, but not required. You could just do it all on one box to start with.

No fussing with CAL licensing

No fussing with tag limitations

No fussing with "portals"

No fussing with "concurrent" user licensing

No fussing with platforms (windows 7, windows 8, mac osx)

No fussing with multiple software platforms, installing them, configuring them, and making them all work.

Plus, put a Ignition in once, and you can pretty much do damn near anything you can dream of. So you've got nothing but creative freedom and time holding you back.

EDIT - Oh, instead of wasting your time on figuring out architecture, licensing, software requirements you could actually be getting stuff done

Click to expand...

Paully

Why do you say you would not need CAL's? If you are running a server you must have CAL's to be legal. Does not matter who's product you are running as it's a Microsoft thing. It will physically run without them but if you get audited and don't have enough device CAL's to cover your devices or enough User CAL's to cover your users you are hosed.

cmac2425 said:

I am looking to purchase FactoryTalk Historian. I am not proficient in the server environment (I know enough to be dangerous) so I wanted to know what licensing requirements I would need to set this system up. Talking to Rockwell, they only know Rockwell licensing. Talking to Microsoft, they only know Microsoft licensing. I think between these two they want me to purchase more licensing then what I need, so I wanted to see if anyone knew enough about BOTH to help me out. Here is what I'm trying to do:

-1 CPU with enough hardware to run 2 VMWare instances (so I don't have to purchase two seperate servers)
-250 point Historian Server on 1 instance of VMWare and VantagePoint Server on the other instance (do I need a concurrent or just a name-user license as I'm the only person that will be doing any editing)
-SQL and Excel add-ons so that I can do some custom queries of the archived information from Historian to VantagePoint
-Use VantagePoint as an HMI through the "Portal" to allow the end user to view trends and export that trend information to excel

In a nutshell, the end user must be able to select the tags provided to them from Historian into Vantage Point, develop the trends they want on the portal through IE/Firefox(with a little training from me ) then export them to excel for future use.

Any information would be greatly appreciated...sorry it was so long winded.

Click to expand...

Not really sure if you have the right terminology but 1 CPU and to VM ware instances? 2 you mean 2 virtual machines?

With Windows Server 2012 one standard edition license on a Physical server covers 2 VM's. and is good for a 1 or 2 processor server. If you have a 4 processor server you need 2 licenses and on and on.

So for server 2012 you have standard and datacenter that's it. Each covers 2 processors per license. The difference with VM's is that Standard supports 2 VM's for each license and Data Center is unlimited VM's only limited by your hardware.

cmac2425 said:

I am looking to purchase FactoryTalk Historian. I am not proficient in the server environment (I know enough to be dangerous) so I wanted to know what licensing requirements I would need to set this system up. Talking to Rockwell, they only know Rockwell licensing. Talking to Microsoft, they only know Microsoft licensing. I think between these two they want me to purchase more licensing then what I need, so I wanted to see if anyone knew enough about BOTH to help me out. Here is what I'm trying to do:

-1 CPU with enough hardware to run 2 VMWare instances (so I don't have to purchase two seperate servers)
-250 point Historian Server on 1 instance of VMWare and VantagePoint Server on the other instance (do I need a concurrent or just a name-user license as I'm the only person that will be doing any editing)
-SQL and Excel add-ons so that I can do some custom queries of the archived information from Historian to VantagePoint
-Use VantagePoint as an HMI through the "Portal" to allow the end user to view trends and export that trend information to excel

In a nutshell, the end user must be able to select the tags provided to them from Historian into Vantage Point, develop the trends they want on the portal through IE/Firefox(with a little training from me ) then export them to excel for future use.

Any information would be greatly appreciated...sorry it was so long winded.

Click to expand...

Concurrent licenses are not attached to a person they are concurrent so I could have 100 people setup in vantage point with their own user name and password but If I only had 1 concurrent license only 1 person out of that 100 could connect. If I had 10 concurrent licenses then 10 people out of that 100 could connect at the same time thus why concurrent cost more.

Named user is just that a named user. I could have a named user license with the user name setup as Brad_Nichols and a password of 12345 and I could use the system and if I wanted someone else to use it I would have to share my username and super secure password. or you could make the username Vantage Point User and password 12345 and share it with everyone that needs it. It all depends on your specific application and needs.

I like concurrent myself as its easy to setup all users up front and if people start griping about access get a charge account to add another concurrent license for them.

cmac2425 said:

.......Here is what I'm trying to do:

-1 CPU with enough hardware to run 2 VMWare instances (so I don't have to purchase two seperate servers)

Click to expand...

I assume you are planning on using Windows Server 2012 Standard Edition. The physical system can have one or two physical CPUs (not cores, but CPUs). So for every two physical CPUs you would need one Server license. One license allows one install in the physical system and up to two virtual instances. If you plan to have more virtual instances look at the Datacenter edition as it does not have the instance limits. (PLC Kid got in a response on this while I typed up my manifesto! In MS licensing each VM is called an instance)

-250 point Historian Server on 1 instance of VMWare and VantagePoint Server on the other instance (do I need a concurrent or just a name-user license as I'm the only person that will be doing any editing)

The license for VantagePoint is a user license, not just a development license. Users will need a license to access reports that contain your "live" or historian data. If the data on your report is static (never updates) then a license is not needed. But that isn't the type of reports you will generate. Your reports will have data that is not static.

If you are the only one to ever access the reports, then one license is sufficient. But, if you have other users that need to access these reports then you will need additional licenses. NamedUser licenses are reserved for specific users. So for example, you would need one since you are the one doing development, and maybe the CFO or Plant Manager might have a license dedicated specifically to them. But in the long run, Concurrent users are much less of a hassle since there is no management required to control who has a license. They are more expensive but much better in the end.

-SQL and Excel add-ons so that I can do some custom queries of the archived information from Historian to VantagePoint.
-Use VantagePoint as an HMI through the "Portal" to allow the end user to view trends and export that trend information to excel

You will need just one SQL Server and it could be an existing server. Microsoft Excel is required for VantagePoint. SQL Server could be on either virtual machine or on another machine on your network.

Using VantagePoint as a sort of HMI makes sense, but exporting trend data to Excel doesn't really. It can do it. You can export trend data to a CSV but it seems unnecessary. Instead you should be looking at Excel reports to go along with your trends.

In a nutshell, the end user must be able to select the tags provided to them from Historian into Vantage Point, develop the trends they want on the portal through IE/Firefox(with a little training from me ) then export them to excel for future use.

Any information would be greatly appreciated...sorry it was so long winded.

So, you stated earlier that you are the only one editing, but that is exactly what you just said the users will be doing. Ideally your users will stay in VantagePoint. They have no business getting into Historian. I think you are over complicating this.

You will setup VantagePoint to connect to your Historian as well as any "live" data you might need. You will create Trend and Excel reports in VantagePoint that users can pull up in the Portal. They can change some basic aspects of those reports on the fly. These reports can be printed or saved as needed.

You can also create what are called Template Reports which would allow your users more flexibility in modifying the report content (such as selecting which tags to use).

Saving to Excel is an unnecessary step. The data is already in your Historian, there is no need to duplicate it in Excel. VantagePoint is all about connecting to all of your data and displaying it to the user in a meaningful way. Take advantage of what VantagePoint can do.

OG

The Plc Kid said:

Paully

Why do you say you would not need CAL's? If you are running a server you must have CAL's to be legal. Does not matter who's product you are running as it's a Microsoft thing. It will physically run without them but if you get audited and don't have enough device CAL's to cover your devices or enough User CAL's to cover your users you are hosed.

Click to expand...

I didn't say anything about using a Microsoft platform.

But you are correct to point that out.

The Plc Kid said:

Paully

Why do you say you would not need CAL's? If you are running a server you must have CAL's to be legal. Does not matter who's product you are running as it's a Microsoft thing. It will physically run without them but if you get audited and don't have enough device CAL's to cover your devices or enough User CAL's to cover your users you are hosed.

Click to expand...

I think Paully's point is, you wouldn't need to run it (Ignition) on Windows Server, you wouldn't even need to use SQL Server. Use Windows 7, Windows 8, iOS, Linux, all of which don't require CALs.

None of which relates to the question that was asked by the OP. Five posts in before someone addressed the question that was asked. We all have our preferences, but in our responses we need to remember post #1.

OG

Paully's5.0 said:

I didn't say anything about using a Microsoft platform.

But you are correct to point that out.

Click to expand...

Oh you meant no client license for ignition?

Tark said:

I think Paully's point is, you wouldn't need to run it (Ignition) on Windows Server, you wouldn't even need to use SQL Server. Use Windows 7, Windows 8, iOS, Linux, all of which don't require CALs.

Click to expand...

Good Point.

I've just finished installing a Historian system. You don't need an SQL license; it ships with the free SQL Express and can use that no problems. Other than that, you just need a license for Historian (which as you seem to know is a "per tag" license), and a license for Vantage Point. I think from memory you get the VantagePoint license with the Historian, it all comes in one box.

Can't tell you too much about the Microsoft licenses for the OS's, I had the IT department set up all my machines before I got there

ASF said:

I've just finished installing a Historian system. You don't need an SQL license; it ships with the free SQL Express and can use that no problems. Other than that, you just need a license for Historian (which as you seem to know is a "per tag" license), and a license for Vantage Point. I think from memory you get the VantagePoint license with the Historian, it all comes in one box.

Can't tell you too much about the Microsoft licenses for the OS's, I had the IT department set up all my machines before I got there

Click to expand...

That's not really correct. It depends on the hardware you are using and how you are using historian. Express is limited to 1 socket or 4 cores and only 1GB of memory per instance and 10GB max on relational DB. This is fine for a small implementation or testing, etc. but the OP did not really say how he was planning to use it and how it may grow.