Ot: Process and fieldbus(ses)

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Hey,
I see that heres a lot of ppl from different areas of the Industry. My question really is do you guys prefer to use just hardwired I/O in youre process controllers?

If you / youre facility uses fieldbus in process control.. what is youre go to? AS-I? Profibus? Ethernet? Profinet? Devicenet? Etc..?

Thanks in advance..
 
As in only hardwired I/O to local cards? Almost absolutely not.

DeviceNet/ControlNet may as well be dead. I would spec none of this in any new projects, retrofits, or upgrades.

Most of the controllers we ship (AB) do native EtherNet/IP, so that's our go-to.

In some of our applications ModbusTCP is a hard requirement. There's some where it's our preference, when there's a meaningful difference in data available to us over the protocol.
 
We only use hardwired I/O's for small machines like simple conveyor sections (one motor, limits switches, etc.). Anything bigger we will use EtherNet IP for I/O's and EtherCAT for motion control. We are starting to look into IO-link for I/O's so it might be this and EtherCAT for motion going forward.
 
In the food industry here in the UK ASI seems to be widely used, some of the reasons are IP rating, many process components like process valves have ASI interfaces, in saying that Profibus is also used quite extensively. Small machines are usually hard wired direct to the I/O.
 
As in only hardwired I/O to local cards? Almost absolutely not.

DeviceNet/ControlNet may as well be dead. I would spec none of this in any new projects, retrofits, or upgrades.

Most of the controllers we ship (AB) do native EtherNet/IP, so that's our go-to.

In some of our applications ModbusTCP is a hard requirement. There's some where it's our preference, when there's a meaningful difference in data available to us over the protocol.

I mean more from the aspect of process machinery..
 
Wrong quote but..
Yes hardwired i/o. Not even on fieldbus.. Im trying to determine is fieldbus not likely to be used in the process field..
 
So generally you would want to upgrade your plc processor before its I/O. You want better security or more analytics or just a bigger plant so need more memory, whatever.

If you use only local IO, actually you are using some proprieatary bus system. If you are using a PLC with extended racks, actually you are using some proprietary fieldbus system.

If you instead use a fieldbus, now you are free to upgrade the PLC processor however you want. Was your PLC sold to Schneider and discontinued? No problem, you can upgrade the PLC processor without shelling out for all new IO cards, and the manual labour to replace them.

In the OPAS (Open Process Automation Standard) reference implementation, and probably the standard itself, a standardised fieldbus is used and there is no local IO to the redundant processors. If I am right, the protocol was OPC UA, but the term 'open' probably means 'give us your email address to get all the info.'
 
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I think he means Profibus PA which is rated for some hazard zones.

Profinet has brought out a new physical layer for ethernet, which uses just Profibus PA cabling, which supposedly extends profinet into the same zones. But this, called APL, is very new and doesn't have as many devices as PA.
 
I think he means Profibus PA which is rated for some hazard zones.

Profinet has brought out a new physical layer for ethernet, which uses just Profibus PA cabling, which supposedly extends profinet into the same zones. But this, called APL, is very new and doesn't have as many devices as PA.
There are PROFINET IO to PROFIBUS PA adapters available. I think the APL Advanced Physical Layer is a promising but still very immature technology. The transition to it will take some time I would say, and I agree with you on this.
 
Purely anecdotal data, so you can take it for what it's worth.

The process instrumentation distributor I worked for (USA) sold
- about 3 Profibus PA instruments per year and all were for replacements for equipment skids manufactured abroad and shipped to the US.
- between 4,000 to 5,000 HART instruments per year
- zero Foundation Fieldbus (FF) instruments until 2021 when a oil/gas supplier in the US won a contract for their systems in Asia and we dealt with about 600 FF transmitters.

As part of tackling the task of assigning a physical node address and a Physical Device (PD) tag on each of these FF transmitters, I discovered that there is a real lack of Foundation Fieldbus instructional material. A colleague who had earlier worked for a competitor told me that they geared up for the FF revolution in the mid-'90's that never materialized. Very few US companies took the leap into FF. They sold 3 FF systems over a 3 year period. A day or two after that conversation he looked me up to tell me that he had checked back with his former company and discovered that one hose '90's FF projects at a local process plant was now coming round because the plant was ripping out all the FF and going back to home run wiring and HART. The reason was the complexity of FF. What would be minor efforts to make changes-over-time, adding or deleting points, became major engineering tasks. The techs who had been trained at considerable expense in the 1990's were gone and trying to hire replacement techs with FF experience that could keep an aging FF network running was impossible.

I remember attending a local ISA meeting in the '90's with a speaker touting FF and I asked how the network was supposed to be maintained - there was no resources written at a tech level to explain operation and maintenance. The response was a shrug because my question didn't fit the sales narrative of "less expensive wiring" and "more diagnostics".

Fora like this occasionally got the spiel that one of the advantages of FF was that commissioning loop checks were no longer required because "everything could be done centrally from a keyboard" and "all that's been supplanted by the communications functions." There's an hour long Youtube FF video by BCIT with Ian Jappy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yi_BsNEG55U

that puts that lie to bed - his commissioning checklist for a single point is a full page long checklist, including the ever-so-common "loop capacitance check" (8:18 to 9:30 on the video) and the wave form check. The issue isn't so much making the check but what do you do when the waveform is not ideal? Where's that intellectual property documented?

The instrutment manufacturer had no one in the US who knew anything about FF, other than it was a coded option in the part number. Zip. Nada. That was a stumbling block.

I produced a 35 slide power point illustrating the steps to configure the PD tag and node address with a Softing FF modem and Pactware. Arcane is the only word I can use for the number of clicks needed to do something so basic.

HART has its complexities, too, especially when used for comm, rather than comm for configuration. On another forum, there's a guy who can't get his HART 5 HART-enabled PLC I/O to talk to a supposedly backwards compatible HART 7 field transmitter. That's changes-over-time.

If you choose to dabble in Foundation Fieldbus realize that there's a whole new vocabulary to deal with. And you might want to check out exactly what resources you will have access to. Every thing as a manual but is it even half way intelligible to the novice?
 
Dawn, hi. I find your anecdote very interesting. I was heavily involved in promoting FF technology in Japan for ten years starting in 2009. There are, in my view, many reasons for this technology not having become as widely used as HART, the main one is the one you mention about all its complexities, high training costs, and so on. Also, I think that when the technology was first released, Windows was not then what it is now, there was no .Net framework development environment, there were no smartphones, so the tools at the time were very expensive. Also not only the tools, but the technology itself, the IO and the media is very expensive and the entry barrier for third party instrument makers and second-tier DCS makers was very high. Still it seems there is a bipolar set of FF users, those who hate it and those who love it, with few in between and less in the latter. You may have a far better grasp of this reality than me.
 
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