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Old January 19th, 2023, 07:37 AM   #1
mad4x4
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Suggestions for a Simple SCADA system

We are looking at upgrading a very old system and I am looking for ideas on the best SCADA to try and implement. Need to be costly effective and expandable. Point count may initially only be up to 5K

The base of the system will be 1 or 2 PLCs, either Siemens S300/ S1200/S1500 or PLCNext (Pheonix) all talking profinet.

I can see the following options :
  • Several Terminals of Wincc + a Process Historian
  • Serveal Terminals of Wonderware + Historian
  • Several Maple or Jmobile Screen Networked together **

** This may be the simplest but is also the most limiting as we need historians and expandability for the future.

We will need plant HMIs (2 or 3) will need a few Operator stations ( 2 or 3), and we will need to log of data and possibly had off to via OPCUA. We are looking at a small point count initially 5-10K, but we need something that is easy to manage/update and has to be an On-Premisis solution as we won't have a plant PLC tech or Scada tech. Support will be from a report site.
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Old January 19th, 2023, 10:44 AM   #2
cardosocea
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Ignition?
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Old January 19th, 2023, 11:34 AM   #3
mad4x4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cardosocea View Post
Ignition?
Is ignition "on premises" I thought it was cloud-based. This is for a control system on a ship, so there is very little internet access.
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Old January 19th, 2023, 02:01 PM   #4
joseph_e2
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My first thought, if "cost effective" was a big deal, was AdvancedHMI (open source)...until I saw that you're connecting to Siemens PLCs over Profinet. AdvancedHMI doesn't support profinet but does do Modbus. I believe there are examples of folks using Modbus to connect to S7s.


You could also look at a Red Lion Data Station or ProducTVity Station. I know the DSP can log data locally or to an ftp site but I was never able to test that out because of our corporate IT policies blocking a lot of that.
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Old January 19th, 2023, 02:11 PM   #5
JordanCClark
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mad4x4 View Post
Is ignition "on premises" I thought it was cloud-based. This is for a control system on a ship, so there is very little internet access.
Ignition can be either on prem or cloud.
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Old January 19th, 2023, 08:33 PM   #6
PreLC
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Look properly at your system and the devices that need to be added onto it.

WinCC professional, Ignition, Wonderware are your options. Although for Siemens Specific I'd personally really recommend WinCC or Ignition.
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Ask not what your PLC can do for you, ask what you can do for your PLC.
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Old January 19th, 2023, 09:55 PM   #7
GaryS
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I got away from the big name systems there all over priced and require a developer license to build the HMI and site license on each station.
I prefer Net Studio and use a single developer license I can deploy the project to as many site computers as I want no additional license necessary, in fact the client can finished program should there computer fails I find it more powerful than any caned system and it’s interesting that all the popular systems including are actually developed in Net Studio. I like to think of as going back to basics
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Old January 19th, 2023, 10:26 PM   #8
parky
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How about Movicon, they do a couple of systems clasic & Next
I have not used the Next version but have used the standard 11.4 I think it was, loved it, VB script, database connectivity very easy, The Next platform I think is XAML based if you contact them they will send you a demo fully functional will run for 2 hours I don't think you need a developer licence prices are tag based (I/O) not internal, I did not use their built in I/O drivers but used Kepware, it can browse the Kepware OPC tags & import them. the guy that used to re-sell for them has retired but I believe he sold the company in the UK I think it's called "products 4 automation"
They are in the Midlands, products4automation.co.uk
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Old January 20th, 2023, 03:40 AM   #9
cardosocea
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mad4x4 View Post
Is ignition "on premises" I thought it was cloud-based. This is for a control system on a ship, so there is very little internet access.
Ignition can be installed on a server wherever you want it to be and run from there. So cloud and onboard a ship would be fine.

Ignition licensing can also be done offline and won't require a network connection to remain valid.

The ignition cost could potentially be recuperated in cheaper terminals (if you can get away with a PC (even a raspberry Pi level of computer would do it) and far more terminals to be installed straight off the bat unlike some SCADAs that require licensing per terminal (or per graphic).

Ignition does provide access to the control system via web browser if required. I've toyed with it, but wasn't particularly impressed with the result without understanding a few HTML concepts that have moved on since I learned HTML.

I've noticed Phoenix is an option, would using the web interface on the PLC (depending on license cost) be any good? It's limited compared to what a normal SCADA can do in some things, but quite functional.
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Old January 20th, 2023, 06:09 AM   #10
tetcie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mad4x4 View Post
We are looking at upgrading a very old system and I am looking for ideas on the best SCADA to try and implement. Need to be costly effective and expandable. Point count may initially only be up to 5K

The base of the system will be 1 or 2 PLCs, either Siemens S300/ S1200/S1500 or PLCNext (Pheonix) all talking profinet.
If you're in the UK and looking for something cost effective, one option that you could go for is Prodigy SCADA.

They have drivers for loads of PLCs including Siemens, their historian is easy to use, the systems are easily expandable, works well with Kepware if you go down the OPCUA route, and from what I'm aware they are cheaper than Wincc, Factorytalk, Wonderware etc.

For being a small company they do a good job with support as well.

I doubt they've ever been mentioned on this forum before but their software is used at some large companies such as Cummins and GKN Aerospace.

They've also got a load of other features I wont bore you with in this post, but they also do a great job with determining system OEE and energy monitoring if those things interest you as well.

I used to work for the company that develops the software, so if you have any questions about the software feel free to get in touch and ask (assuming all the knowledge hasn't left my head as soon as I left to company lol).
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Old January 20th, 2023, 12:09 PM   #11
0151paul
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We've just started using Blue OpenStudio
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Old January 24th, 2023, 11:59 PM   #12
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Ignotion also provides a free version that may fit your needs.
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Old January 25th, 2023, 03:42 AM   #13
cardosocea
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Originally Posted by tlf30 View Post
Ignotion also provides a free version that may fit your needs.
Unless you read the terms and conditions where it states that it's not for commercial purposes.
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