Soft PLC's taking over?

So reading the internet this came up...

https://iot-analytics.com/soft-plc-industrial-innovators-dilemma/

Soft PLC's vs Hard PLC's and compared the PLC's manufactures to Kodak, I disagree with this and would like to hear others opinion, I have to admit it was 2am when reading so maybe I missed some of the details but I do not see the standard PLC going away anytime soon, I do see a market for other devices but not really in the "industrial" environment, most are looking to standardize their processes and simplify so their own people can work and maintain them

And the whole "soft PLC" is a little stupid... its either a PLC or not and Beckoff is a PLC, a hard one

I agree. Soft PLC's have there place but will never (IMO) replace Hard PLC's.

The comparison between PLC's and cameras is a bit left field as well. If we were talking about digital data recorders vs paper chart recorders, that would make more sense.

Who remembers having to go and replace the paper every 24 hrs?
Ahhh, those were the days! HaHa

Lynx777 said:

Who remembers having to go and replace the paper every 24 hrs?
Ahhh, those were the days! HaHa

Click to expand...

It was never my job to replace the paper, I only installed the charts... and that would drive me nuts, 24hr chart and it would be 3-4 days worth of lines before they would replace them

geniusintraining said:

It was never my job to replace the paper, I only installed the charts... and that would drive me nuts, 24hr chart and it would be 3-4 days worth of lines before they would replace them

Click to expand...

First - I go to an electronics shop that has 1 week paper chart recorders all over for temperature and humidity. Looking at the charts they have to have 5 or 6 weeks of lines around them.

Second - the SoftPLC brings to mind Automation Direct's new "PLC" controller that is a Arduino controller that uses their Productivity1000 IO cards. I don't think that will have any application in the industrial field. The only use for that I can see is home hobbyists working on home automation (but mine is all ControlLogix and SLC's)

Let me give my view of this interesting topic:

I work for an OEM in the MedTech Industry.
In my example I will use and describe hardware from Siemens:
When we standardized our hardware platform in 2016 with Siemens we did it with the following systems:
____________________________________________________________
Old CPU: CPU 1516F-3 PN/DP (6ES7516-3FN02-0AB0)
New CPU: S7-1515SP(F) PC 2 <- Soft controller with integrated safety running in Siemens ET200SP Shell.

Old HMI: TP 1500 comfort (6AV2124-0QC02-0AX0).
New HMI: A 19" Full HD Multitouch. The PLC Siemens has a Displayport Integrated.
______________________________________________________________

Direct and interesting benefits:

1) By paper the S7-1516F Siemens System should have a 1:1 bit/word etc reading speed. In reality, it did not. We have a machine running 60 PPM with the s7-1516 system. While changing to the Soft controller the machine speed increased to 77 PPM .. that's an increase of 28%.
- We are executing the complete cycle in less than 2.5ms. In this time we are running through quite some complex logic and controlling 10 servo, 5 stepper motors, and a couple of hundreds of digital I/O and analog signals. This is Beckhoff territory.

2) HMI. a HMI is usually a high cost no matter the vendor. The list price for a S7-1516 system is around the same for the S7-1515sp PC 2but the S7-1515SP PC 2 comes with a Runtime server as well (this is an option when you buy the system). This means you can run your HMI application on the PC that also controls the softcontroller to the same price as an ordinary HMI.
- The HMI application comes with an FDA-approved Audit Trail.
- A full HD Multitouch screen costs around 1400 - 1700 USD depending on
the vendor.

3) Edge Analytics. The possibility to evaluate and store data in the same
hardware creates a compact design.

4) Integration to MatLab, Visual Studio, etc is done at more ease.

5) Integration of other applications such as Vision software etc.
_____________________________________________________________

There is a place for everything. But over the years with more advancing technologies it has opened up a new market for OEMs with the more complex system. For example, you can now evaluate the runtime parameters of a single object in realtime without losing processer power and work on a business model for preventive maintenance. Theoretically, you can become a digital storehouse for your customer with spare and wear parts.

Using a Softcontroller as the main PLC for a couple of conveyors or a pump or so doesn't make any sense. But for more complex machinery there is a place for it.

I'm no expert with AB CPUs but I think what we achieved with the Siemens is quite close to what the CompactLogix 5480 Controllers deliver (?)

https://www.rockwellautomation.com/...gix-family/compactlogix-5480-controllers.html

Weren't we suppose to see soft PLCs take over since 2000ish? The premise of it being more feasible now due to virtualization, docker, "maturation of Linux" seems to only complicate matters.

Rockwell discontinued SoftLogix.

I would be open to it for a true "Edge" application where I have a basic remote system, but need critical data from it and control is only a dozen or so IO points. Having a soft PLC, local visualization, data collect/store forward ability in one box would be hard to pass by vs a MicroLogix/HMI combination.

Paullys50 said:

Weren't we suppose to see soft PLCs take over since 2000ish?

Click to expand...

Soft PLC's probably were going to run all the flying cars we would all have by 2010.

I think it becomes dangerous when looking back too much of what has been instead of what the future and present can offer. We should, of course, take into account our experience but sometimes the experience becomes a limit for our personal development.

I have discussed this topic with customers where their on-site technician would speak about Soft controllers in the 90's and why it's so bad. It is like speaking with a wall.

For 'low-end' customers, the integrated soft controllers will probably not find their market shares. It's for more demanding customers.

I think PLCs will go to software only in a server somewhere as more and more people are comfortable using networked remote IO (ethernet at that). It's not uncommon now to see a PLC by itself with one or two ethernet cables to a switch or to a remote IO block next to it.

In a lot of places I've seen as well that people install a large network across the site, configure VLANs per system and have all of the controllers locked away in a room somewhere with the IO connected around in the field. Personally, I don't like it. Or I would like it if I could trust maintenance techs to replace a switch, upload configuration and put all the cabling in the right place.

Once your installation is already truly distributed, the PLC isn't strictly necessary and can just be one or two boxes running a soft PLC.

Just as more and more of IT practices and equipment makes it into the automation world, so will the PLCs go into a software only solution rather than something inside a box.

Also, worth noting, particularly when dealing with kit from a certain American vendor, adding a network card to a common PLC is either seriously expensive or not possible... adding a network card to a server is trivial and a lot of them already come with a massive array of network ports out of the box.

As mentioned previously, soft plcs were going to take over the world 20 years ago. We have PLCs in our facility that have been there 20 years. We dont have PC's that have been there that long. You can get industrial PC's however my experience with them has been that they died faster than regular desktops in the same environment. Yes I understand all the talk about forward thinking; however, you have to use your experiences with the past and apply them to that thinking. Ask what has changed in the last 20 years. In my opinion, PCs have become less reliable as the manufacturers compete to provide something at a low cost. Using server grade PCs may be the answer, but I doubt you can compete with the hardiness of a quality PLC. Second, you still have to build a soft PLC on an operating system that was not designed for real time operations. I have never had to reboot one of my PLCs. I have not had a quality PLC hang up. I cant say this about any of our PCs. I have seen applications where a soft PLC might be reasonable. They generally involve machines that can be stopped and rebooted without major issues. Try doing that in the middle of a chemical reaction in a reactor. No thanks. PLCs are simply computers that are designed around the industrial world. PCs are computers designed around the commercial world. I see no reason to try and fit that commercial square peg into my industrial round hole. Same with other instrumentation. I would not specify a lab pressure measurement system in an industrial setting. Its not designed for that and would not hold up. Finally you have the IT issue. I can use my local PLC networks and design to separate myself from the IT gurus that want to insert themselves into things they dont understand. Upgrading a PC remotely and shutting down a line for instance. That buffer alone is worth the extra cost. Downtime is generally the highest cost you will face. Rarely does the extra cost for good solid equipment compete with that.

PLCMentor said:

Finally you have the IT issue.

Click to expand...

I heard a story that in the request for proposals for the first PLCs, only two companies responded, and one was DEC (Digital Equipment Corporation). One of the knocks against the DEC proposal was that the IT department would try to take ownership of anything with a DEC label on it, because DEC was a computer company.

VictorBit said:

- We are executing the complete cycle in less than 2.5ms. In this time we are running through quite some complex logic and controlling 10 servo, 5 stepper motors, and a couple of hundreds of digital I/O and analog signals. This is Beckhoff territory.

Click to expand...

Out of curiosity, what was your scan time before?

From my perspective, most PLCs are using modern COTS chips (ARM, x86, etc), so the difference between "soft" and "hard" is how much access the PLC gives you to the guts, how much non-IEC61131 programming is allowed, and if you can run programs outside of the PLC runtime.

I think the idea of software PLC running on a VM on a server somewhere is interesting, but I don't know if general IT VM tech is there yet. A quick perusal of white papers says that VMWare has a low latency feature that seems to fairly reliably keep latency under 10us, but I'm not sure how much that is the ceiling vs the floor. I know it's POSSIBLE, because the hypervisor on your open controller does it, but my understanding is that is an in-house solution (I don't have any inside knowledge here, but https://github.com/siemens/jailhouse seems awfully on point).

VictorBit said:

I think it becomes dangerous when looking back too much of what has been instead of what the future and present can offer. We should, of course, take into account our experience but sometimes the experience becomes a limit for our personal development.

I have discussed this topic with customers where their on-site technician would speak about Soft controllers in the 90's and why it's so bad. It is like speaking with a wall.

Click to expand...

THIS!! Oh, I can so relate.

I told you all many times: "It's Beckhoff!" Rockwell Automation = Kodak.