Is the customer always right?

scott.maddox

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Aug 2013
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Im curious as to how other people handle redundancy requirements. I'm currently working on a project with rundandant compact logic processors and 4 devicent scanners. Two scanners are setup as primary and secondary on the same network. The other two are setup the same way. Every time an output is turned on we fire 2 rendundant relays controlling the same device. They also have a graphic panel that has a backup touchscreen.
We actually had an Allen Bradley rep tell the customer they have overcomplicated the system so much their reliability has gone down.
My personal preference is to just provide spare parts that can be plug and play. I almost always feel that most rendundant systems end up more headache than they are worth.
 
Hi
It depends on the process/equipment.

I worked on a system where the plant was in a containment room and was not easily accessible.

Usually a HAZOP or similar will determine the needs of the customer... for example if they power off to replace a part do they lose the batch?

That can cost many $$$$$

Cheers
 
I worked on a system where the plant was in a containment room and was not easily accessible.
Click to expand...
That is a good example. I worked on the flight computers for the NASA Saturn V rocket. The requirement was that every circuit had 3 parallel paths. That made it complex, but there was no way to fix it after it left Earth.
 
I didn't know they had PLCs in space. I would hate to have to deal with that service call. Obviously in that situation money is no object to the government and reliability would be paramount. I guess my question is do you ever try to stear customers away from redundancy if they are wasting money and needlessly over complicating the project?
 
I have learnt to get the customer to write a spec and to formulate quotes to the spec to make things transparent

If they want to pay for complications it is their choice. It would always be good to discuss their needs or to propose better/cheaper solutions of course.
 
Rule No.1 : The customer is always right.

Rule No.2 : If Rule No.1 doesn't apply, refer to Rule No.1

Rule No.3 : If Rule No.2 was applied, double your quote.
 
Lancie1 said:
That is a good example. I worked on the flight computers for the NASA Saturn V rocket. The requirement was that every circuit had 3 parallel paths. That made it complex, but there was no way to fix it after it left Earth.
Click to expand...

That's the coolest thing I think anyone has ever said....
 
cjd1965 said:
Hi
It depends on the process/equipment.

I worked on a system where the plant was in a containment room and was not easily accessible.

Usually a HAZOP or similar will determine the needs of the customer... for example if they power off to replace a part do they lose the batch?

That can cost many $$$$$

Cheers
Click to expand...

I do quite a bit of work for a Pharma that has 1 million dollar batches in freeze dryers yet will not spring for full power emergency generator backups with automatic switching.
 
The customer is NOT always right. However, the customer is always the one that signs the check. If you think the customer is making a mistake you have an obligation to explain the hows and whys to him. If the customer persists then he has the right to spend his money as he wishes, and you have the right to charge accordingly.

PS: I agree that most redundant systems are both unnecessary and ineffective. However, they sound like they should be a good idea.
 
Hi

Having never installed a full redundant system it's not really my place to say its good or not.i have only installed a redundant network system (control net) and I don't think I have 100% faith in it.I do agree win tom on two points 1 it sounds like a good idea and
2 no the costumer is not always right but they are still the costumer.

Donnchadh
 
Tom Jenkins said:
The customer is NOT always right. However, the customer is always the one that signs the check. If you think the customer is making a mistake you have an obligation to explain the hows and whys to him. If the customer persists then he has the right to spend his money as he wishes, and you have the right to charge accordingly.

PS: I agree that most redundant systems are both unnecessary and ineffective. However, they sound like they should be a good idea.
Click to expand...
I agree, 'most' redundant systems I have dealt with were just "feel good" emotional salves that escalated costs.
Isn't Free Capitalism wonderful?
 
Stupid question, how do you know if one of your redundant systems has failed? And if you don't know and the other one fails then you are down anyhow. If you keep up this reasoning you could be adding backups after backups.
 
Mark Snodgrass said:
Stupid question, how do you know if one of your redundant systems has failed? And if you don't know and the other one fails then you are down anyhow. If you keep up this reasoning you could be adding backups after backups.
Click to expand...

That is why the NASA system Lancie worked on had three paths - two out of three voting made the decision. Most redundant PLC systems have two CPUs - thus duplicating what is probably the most reliable part of the control system anyway.
 
daba said:
Rule No.1 : The customer is always right.

Rule No.2 : If Rule No.1 doesn't apply, refer to Rule No.1

Rule No.3 : If Rule No.2 was applied, double your quote.
Click to expand...

The customer is not always right. If this was truth, then he would not need experts (us). "The customer is always right" rule applies to restaurants, hotels, markets and all other similar services.
 

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