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Old May 17th, 2010, 09:10 AM   #1
Combo
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WinCC Flexible as a Scada Light for around 7000 tags... ?

Hellow

A customer of ours has many MP377 HMI's in his company and wants to be able to control everything from one PC in the same way as the HMI's. Some of the HMI's have more then 2000 tags.

When an HMI dies, he wants to be able to control with WinCC Flex Runtime on the PC.

Another thing is being able of trending varibles on a PC.

We have a license for 4096 tags. But, this is not enough, the total amount of tags is around 7000 tags.


All together:
- All HMI's in one PC Runtime project, all connected at once.
- Multiplex by using words instead of bits... group bits in arrays, in this way being able to connect around 7000 tags with a license of 4096 tags.

Are there people out there who have alternatives for this kind of idea ?


The multiplexing thing is a lot of work...

What if we use change connection... are only the power tags used for the chosen connection ?



I was more thinking in a way like:
Making a PC Runtime project and only show what's needed but being able to start an HMI from the Flexible ES.


Ideas ?

Thanks in forward,
Kind regards,
Gerry

Last edited by Combo; May 17th, 2010 at 09:13 AM.
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Old May 17th, 2010, 09:49 AM   #2
JesperMP
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Hi Gerry.

I suggest that you make a series of "emergency" PC RT projects from converted MP377 projects. Let these be available on a PC with a PC RT license, only for the purpose of running one PC RT in case one of the MP377 panels are down. That will take the least effort and probably cost you only one 512 tags license.

As to the trending, then you probably do not need to trend 7000 tags, but maybe a much smaller number of tags. I would do that on another PC with a PC RT just for that purpose.

If you need to run several converted MP377 projects at a time, or an MP377 project on the same PC as the trending project, then maybe you should consider to run one or more PC RT in a VMware virtual machine. You need a license for each of these. I believe it will work well as long as the online conection is via ethernet and the target PLCs are "reachable" from the VMware vitual machines.
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Old May 17th, 2010, 11:48 AM   #3
Combo
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Sounds good

Hi Jesper,

Sounds good enough for me. Now I have to convince my collegue that it can be done like that. His Idea was to change lot's and lot's of tags... for example, M200.5, has to be MW200 bit 5 (array). This to prevent lot's of bittags. To me it looks like waaaaay too much work.
What you say is very interesting: I can use VMware to let things trend in one Runtime and another via VMWARE to takeover panels... they will have ethernet simultanious ?

Thanks !!
Kind regards,

Gerry


Quote:
Originally Posted by JesperMP View Post
Hi Gerry.

I suggest that you make a series of "emergency" PC RT projects from converted MP377 projects. Let these be available on a PC with a PC RT license, only for the purpose of running one PC RT in case one of the MP377 panels are down. That will take the least effort and probably cost you only one 512 tags license.

As to the trending, then you probably do not need to trend 7000 tags, but maybe a much smaller number of tags. I would do that on another PC with a PC RT just for that purpose.

If you need to run several converted MP377 projects at a time, or an MP377 project on the same PC as the trending project, then maybe you should consider to run one or more PC RT in a VMware virtual machine. You need a license for each of these. I believe it will work well as long as the online conection is via ethernet and the target PLCs are "reachable" from the VMware vitual machines.
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Old May 19th, 2010, 04:42 PM   #4
Combo
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vmware

Jesper,

Just a little question that I can't get of my mind...

When one flexible runtime is running with an ethernet connection, can a second flexible runtime (MP377) from VMWARE on the same ĘPC connect too ? Both WinCC Flexible Runtimes will have connection without probs ?

Kind regards,
Gerry


Quote:
Originally Posted by Combo View Post
Hi Jesper,

Sounds good enough for me. Now I have to convince my collegue that it can be done like that. His Idea was to change lot's and lot's of tags... for example, M200.5, has to be MW200 bit 5 (array). This to prevent lot's of bittags. To me it looks like waaaaay too much work.
What you say is very interesting: I can use VMware to let things trend in one Runtime and another via VMWARE to takeover panels... they will have ethernet simultanious ?

Thanks !!
Kind regards,

Gerry
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Old May 19th, 2010, 05:48 PM   #5
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Yes it will work.
The VMware virtual PC must be "bridged" to the host PC. The target PLC must be reachable from the virtual PC, i.e it must respond to a ping.

edit: The virtual PC must have its own unique IP address that isnt used by any other PC, real or virtual.
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Old May 20th, 2010, 01:52 AM   #6
Combo
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Jesper

Thanks Jesper.
I've red in an other topic that you did some experiments with VMWARE and WinCC Flex :-).

It's a great help, thanks very much !!

Quote:
Originally Posted by JesperMP View Post
Yes it will work.
The VMware virtual PC must be "bridged" to the host PC. The target PLC must be reachable from the virtual PC, i.e it must respond to a ping.

edit: The virtual PC must have its own unique IP address that isnt used by any other PC, real or virtual.
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Old May 26th, 2010, 04:59 AM   #7
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Testing Testing...

Jesper,

I did some tests and I have a lot of progression =>

Here I am at our office, so I needed to use VPN for the tests.
- I installed S7 and flex on a VM.
- I build up a VPN from my machine and the VM as well.
- Both can ping to the PLC.
- Runtime (fwx files) works.

I did not test Flex Runtime in VM and my machine at the same time yet, but I believe it will work.

Like u said, I setted VMware bridged and My machine and VM have different IP's in the same range.


BUT,
Then I installed on a clean VM only flex Runtime and I copied the folder HMIEs. Started the Runtime (fwx) of the panels in that Runtime, but they do not get online. Ping reply ok. In the other VM where Simatic is installed, there is does work...

I'm searching for the problem at this moment...

Do you have an idea yet ?




Quote:
Originally Posted by JesperMP View Post
Yes it will work.
The VMware virtual PC must be "bridged" to the host PC. The target PLC must be reachable from the virtual PC, i.e it must respond to a ping.

edit: The virtual PC must have its own unique IP address that isnt used by any other PC, real or virtual.
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Old May 26th, 2010, 07:12 AM   #8
Combo
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Can't

No, it's more then that...
The network adress is 192.168.1.38.
Status: connected.
But I cannot go on google or VPN in this Virtual Machine...
The Network setting is still bridged, but... it does nothing... So connecting VPN doesn't work either at this moment... I tried several vmware OS, but they do all the same ??

Any ideas ?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Combo View Post
Jesper,

I did some tests and I have a lot of progression =>

Here I am at our office, so I needed to use VPN for the tests.
- I installed S7 and flex on a VM.
- I build up a VPN from my machine and the VM as well.
- Both can ping to the PLC.
- Runtime (fwx files) works.

I did not test Flex Runtime in VM and my machine at the same time yet, but I believe it will work.

Like u said, I setted VMware bridged and My machine and VM have different IP's in the same range.


BUT,
Then I installed on a clean VM only flex Runtime and I copied the folder HMIEs. Started the Runtime (fwx) of the panels in that Runtime, but they do not get online. Ping reply ok. In the other VM where Simatic is installed, there is does work...

I'm searching for the problem at this moment...

Do you have an idea yet ?

Last edited by Combo; May 26th, 2010 at 07:14 AM.
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Old May 26th, 2010, 07:45 AM   #9
Combo
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hmmm

Getting dissapointed in Vmware:

hmmmm.jpg


cfsvsf.jpg


Quote:
Originally Posted by Combo View Post
No, it's more then that...
The network adress is 192.168.1.38.
Status: connected.
But I cannot go on google or VPN in this Virtual Machine...
The Network setting is still bridged, but... it does nothing... So connecting VPN doesn't work either at this moment... I tried several vmware OS, but they do all the same ??

Any ideas ?
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Old May 26th, 2010, 08:37 AM   #10
Combo
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Hmmm

Connection with a VM where no Siemens software is installed on => www.google.be np. Connection with VM where Siemens software installed on, no internet or vpn possible. This morning I could connect with flex thrue vpn without a prob... I installed updates on the vm, Maybe that's the prob ??
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Old May 26th, 2010, 09:33 AM   #11
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Okay

Okay

Found something... pretty strange...

I had one XP that still made internet connection in VMware. It was started from an external Hard Disk. When I copied it to my C, then I have the choice... moved it or copied it, I allways said copied. When I did that the last time, running the VM on the external drive np, after copied on local drive no internet connection anymore. Then I tried moved it !!!

THIS WORKED.

What's the difference, well...
When it worked on the external drive, the IP in the VM XP was 192.168.1.27. When I said copied is was 192.168.1.38 (don't work), when I said moved it remained 192.168.1.27 wich was good.

Isn't 192.168.1.38 allowed ?? Why did I have this problem ?
I can work now with the VM that works, but it gave me a lot of extra searching work.

regards,
Gerry






Quote:
Originally Posted by Combo View Post
Connection with a VM where no Siemens software is installed on => www.google.be np. Connection with VM where Siemens software installed on, no internet or vpn possible. This morning I could connect with flex thrue vpn without a prob... I installed updates on the vm, Maybe that's the prob ??
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Old May 26th, 2010, 05:29 PM   #12
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Have been away for a while.
I cannot say what your problems where exactly. I dont have the same problems. And I know that for example Siemens own support people are using various Vm's to support a multitude of software versions, so it must work for them too.
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Old May 27th, 2010, 01:44 AM   #13
Combo
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Hey

Hey,

These were XP vm's from the internet, I will install my own OS in Vmware today. Once it works, I will not use "copied" anymore but "moved" instead... "copied" does something with the networksettings..

Regards,
Gerry

Quote:
Originally Posted by JesperMP View Post
Have been away for a while.
I cannot say what your problems where exactly. I dont have the same problems. And I know that for example Siemens own support people are using various Vm's to support a multitude of software versions, so it must work for them too.
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Old May 27th, 2010, 04:03 AM   #14
Combo
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strange

strange problem now...

I installed xp in VMware, installed VPN Aventail, have connection, can ping and got ping reply. Installed WinCC flex Runtime SP2. Not ES. Installed necessary licenses.

Run an fwx file... doesn't connect, all ###

?? Do you have an idea ?
On my local laptop it does work when I hit the play button in wincc flex es

Quote:
Originally Posted by Combo View Post
Hey,

These were XP vm's from the internet, I will install my own OS in Vmware today. Once it works, I will not use "copied" anymore but "moved" instead... "copied" does something with the networksettings..

Regards,
Gerry
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Old May 27th, 2010, 04:05 AM   #15
Combo
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oeps

oeps

pg/pc forgot, ok now

Quote:
Originally Posted by Combo View Post
strange problem now...

I installed xp in VMware, installed VPN Aventail, have connection, can ping and got ping reply. Installed WinCC flex Runtime SP2. Not ES. Installed necessary licenses.

Run an fwx file... doesn't connect, all ###

?? Do you have an idea ?
On my local laptop it does work when I hit the play button in wincc flex es
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