800 HP AC Drive Wiring

Kid, to answer your questions in your reply,

First, yes conduit is a pretty good noise suppressor. Not as good as shielded cable but still pretty good.

The motor lead cable is made mostly to provide grounding and shielding to reduce radiated EMI/RFI. I've never heard the corona discharge claims. They might be true, however.

Just why you can get away with longer leads on higher hp motors has to do with the lower impedances of the larger motors and lower distributed inductance of the larger cables. The rules for length I gave you are only for the protection of the motor insulation. You may need to shield the wiring sooner for EMI/RFI problems.

The MG1P31 is a reference to special testing that NEMA mandates in their specification MG1 Part 31. This testing involves higher voltages and pulse power rather than sine wave power to adequately test insulation integrity on motors intended for inverter power. Inverter power stresses motor insulation more than ordinary sine wave power so suitable testing was put into place for motors claiming to be "inverter duty". Without that spec endorsement, you don't know what you are buying.

A six, twelve, or eighteen pulse drive refers to the number of input power phases and the resulting number of diode rectifiers that are used to convert the AC to DC. For example, a drive with only single phase input AC could be said to be a two pulse drive, if three phase then six pulse, if six phase then 12 pulse, and if nine phase then 18 pulse.

If a drive is designed for ordinary three phase input power and has a diode rectifier input design, then it is a six pulse drive. Most commodity drives are like that.

The extra phases and extra diode rectifiers are done primarily to reduce input current and voltage distortion. Six pulse drives so not use input power smoothly and the resulting disturbances cause all kinds of trouble with transformers and other sensitive electronic devices that are using the same power. Today, there is new technology around that reduces input distortion and harmonics without all the extra phases and the special transformer that is needed to create them.

Your selection of a k rated isolation transformer is good as it tends to block the passage of distortion and harmonics backward into the power network. It also provides a nice close grounded wye source for power to the drive. Be sure to ground the center of the wye secondary to the drive. Doing that will help avoid other problems if your plant grounding system is anything less than excellent.

Hang in there and keep learning! The risks are great but, with care and due diligence, you can pull this off. If there is help available, be sure to take it. It makes the learning experience somewhat more "comfortable".
 
The extra phases and extra diode rectifiers are done primarily to reduce input current and voltage distortion. Six pulse drives so not use input power smoothly and the resulting disturbances cause all kinds of trouble with transformers and other sensitive electronic devices that are using the same power. Today, there is new technology around that reduces input distortion and harmonics without all the extra phases and the special transformer that is needed to create them.

REPLY: Where can i see this kind of setup? What kind of transformer to create the extra phases?

I don't know if the motor is MG1P31 but it is inverter duty baldor.If memory serves the data plate does not have info for 60 hz only 90 and 120?

I will check the motor and reply back.

As far as power supply this is a direct feeder from the switchgear with nothing else on it.Plus it has a k rated isolation transformer before the mains as i was smart enough to research that.
REPLY Kinda late and kinda silly to ask now but,,,, you have the capacity (ie extra capacity) on transformer for this??

REPLY: Dan you are dead on about my boss cheap is an understatement.Funny thing is he does not mind spending on tools,training,materials and the best of all i would not be afraid to say that i have accumulated $30,000.00 worth of tools and equipment on this job in the last 2 years all of our tools are snap-on,fluke scopemeters,etc and he gets one for everyone that would use it to keep in their box/tools he has already signed me up for about 7k for of ab and other classes before fall quarter starts but he almost refuses to bring in outside help of any kind contractors,consultants,etc i really don't get it but he gets ****ed when you challenge it in any kind of manner.

They are paying for about 80 percent of my college and that is the primary reason i put up with it.

He will get us anything we need but he wants "his guy's to do it in house" sometimes he could get much better work from a contractor but you can't make him see it.

As far as safety i am extra careful.I left a little early today because not much was going on besides this and i already had 15 hrs and the week just began. i was still tired from last 71 hr week plus class.

I have never been acused of being fast but i will get it right if it takes all day. Sometimes maybe a little too much. I tend to be a perfectionist about my work.
 
Dan you are dead on about my boss cheap is an understatement.Funny thing is he does not mind spending on tools,training,materials and the best of all i would not be afraid to say that i have accumulated $30,000.00 worth of tools and equipment on this job in the last 2 years all of our tools are snap-on,fluke scopemeters,etc and he gets one for everyone that would use it to keep in their box/tools he has already signed me up for about 7k for of ab and other classes before fall quarter starts but he almost refuses to bring in outside help of any kind contractors,consultants,etc i really don't get it but he gets ****ed when you challenge it in any kind of manner.


They are paying for about 80 percent of my college and that is the primary reason i put up with it.

REPLY OK so boss is not perfect. Better than many I have seen.


He will get us anything we need but he wants "his guy's to do it in house" sometimes he could get much better work from a contractor but you can't make him see it.
REPLY I also firmly believe you are better doing in house
ONLY to a limit though.
If he is willing to let you take the extra time to do the learning and live with mistakes then maybe you have a good thing going. I am firmly convinced you do not always get better work from contractors but then I made lot of money doing functional testing of equipment they installed and troubleshooting and reconnecting. They are quicker though.

Dan
 
I'll try one more time.

Installation of a power system without the proper knowledge and background is a dangerous thing. Convince your boss that hiring an engineer to properly design this system is the right thing to do. He can still have his "in house" guys do the work, it just needs to be designed right.

I can appreciate the position that you are in, but power systems and safety are not things to learn on the fly or off a forum on the internet. Giving us bits and pieces of information of your installation is not enough to make sure this is safe and correct.

There are lots of things to consider that you might miss or that school doesn't teach you. Even when you get a degree, there is still so much to learn (there is no NEC class in college, or OSHA class, or safety class, or many other things).

Do you really want to take a chance to possibly injury (or kill) someone because of your installation?
 
Bruce

He has had this recommendation multiple times.

He has reported that his boss
1. Is not cheap with tools
2. Is not cheap with sending Kid to college
3. Appears to let Kid pretty much do it with "getitdun" pressure.
4. Appears to let Kid knock off when he is tired.
5. Gets real wound up when Kid requests outside support.

CONCLUSIONS
Boss is not perfect but better than many I have worked for. Gets a B or C+ in my mind.

Kid is not gonna get an engineer no matter how many times we recommend it nor how many times he asks his boss.

It really does not require an engineer to put this together properly. It DOES take someone with the ability to go thru the nine (teen?) chapters in NEC read the tables and put it together. I have seen EEs with PE screw these up. He is gonna learn how to do it that is for sure. He is asking the right questions.

He does need design expertise no doubt of it and is over his head at this time. He is gonna learn how to do it - I am sure of it.

I fully agree there is no OSHA MSHA and other 4 letter names in college. Must be why I made good money in safety and industrial hygiene. If he needs guidance on OSHA stuff he may have a plant safety guy who knows his stuff - if not I will help him.

I have confidence in him that when he goes to do initial testing everything will be closed up or barricaded and no one will get hurt.

Dan Bentler
 
I have the wiring to the motor pulled and terminated.

Ran 3 350kcmil per phase one 350 of u,v,w in each pipe with 4/0 insulated grounf wire in each pipe.

Grounds ard all bonded together at the peckerhead and in distribution block in the cabinet.

use polaris connectors to make taps in the peckerhead.

Did insulation test on wires after pull to make sure no problems but pull went smooth with lots of lube and only one 90.

Working on devicenet wiring to control the drive now.

Motor is mounted and laser aligned with gear box. Decoupled for inertia tune.

Connected transformer temp switch to remote i/o for monitoring with plc as well as drive cabinet temperature.

Check all connections in drive cabinet for correct torque.Nothing got loose in shipment.

Looking into motor spec now to see if i need a shaft grounding brush/ring if so we already use the igs shaft grounding rings and keep stock of almost every size.If i can't find out from motor spec for sure can i put one on anyway. Can't hurt anything right?

Checked motor insulation with fluke megger,

Well back to it.
 
Kid, a 12 pulse drive uses a transformer with both a delta and a wye secondary. This gives you six phases each 60 degrees apart and 12 diode conduction pulses. An 18 pulse drive uses the above transformer with a third secondary wired "zigzag". Sorry, but I can't explain how that works. I just know that there are nine phases each 40 degrees apart.

I trust that your input power to your drive is 277/480V wye-derived. If it is floating delta 480V, there is more trouble ahead.

If your motor is nameplated 90 and 120hz then it is clearly designed for invertor power and, most likely, has better insulation. Whether it meets MG1P31 or not is unclear but with short leads should be ok.

Go ahead and use the shaft grounding ring. It's cheap insurance.
 
Another thing I will throw in is that I also thought the screen was also used to transfer any stray generated currents in the motor back to the frame of the drive and therefore to the base of the IGBTs or trnasistors. If earth wires are used for this purpose I was always taught to first take them to the frame of the drive then to the earth bar.
Any comments.
Regards Alan Case
 
Got the drive running today and did a static tune.

Have some devicenet i/o problems to work through (my first hand at devicenet)before applying a load and doing an inertia tune.

Ran drive at variable speeds through full speed today with no load.

Everything seems to be going well.
 
Drive is running great.Inertia tuning was quite a learning experience and i had to make several calls to the factory because the way the static and inertia tunes work and my application.

But it has been running under load making good product for 3 hrs now.

I am real happy.
 
Thank you to everyone who posted to help me.

Thank you so so much.

I could not have done this without the support and guidance that i recieved here.

Thank you again.

Kid
 

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