zmanvortex
Member
My best advice to you is to first learn that there is no such thing as a stupid question. Knowing that will get you far.
?????
- Thread starter SeanLee
- Start date
Hester
Member
Here ya go...
http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2004/tuition.html
UVSC: Great ET program. Be a resident first.
http://www.uvsc.edu/tuition/tuition03.html
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MarkTTU
Lifetime Supporting Member
Even though everyone has pretty much covered this one I'll still throw in my two cents...
A degree of any type will never hurt you, but not having one can hurt you (not will, but can).
There are some people who want to see the piece of paper, for those you need it. There are some people who don't care about the piece of paper, but those don't hold it against you if you have it so long as you know what you’re doing.
I got my BSEE in 2002. After my first year at school I got a part-time job with a small company as the engineer grunt. I did everything from PLC software (simple modifications) to assembly and tech work (we’re an OEM). I learned as much working with the guys in the shop as I did working with the engineers in the office. Now that I’ve got my piece of paper I make a lot more than $15/hr even if you figure in 10hrs/week of OT I no longer get paid for. Thing is I can (and still do from time to time) work as a tech and that helps me create intelligent designs more than anything else.
I've found that when I go to a customer's location the first thing I have to do is figure out if they want to talk to the engineer who designed the system or the tech who can fix the problem caused by the engineers. Having a degree doesn't stop me from being the latter, but not having one would stop me from being the former.
As Bob put it engineers can work in the theoretical better than techs (generalization I know, but true most of the time). In any given month I call on knowledge learned getting my engineering degree maybe three times. The knowledge gained working as a tech I use every day. If you can find a part-time job as a tech and go to school at the same time do it. If you can’t find a job like that then go back and forth between being a tech and being a student. When you’ve got your piece of paper decide what you want to do, if you find a job you want where they’re looking for a tech then be a tech, the degree won’t keep you from getting the job.
A degree of any type will never hurt you, but not having one can hurt you (not will, but can).
There are some people who want to see the piece of paper, for those you need it. There are some people who don't care about the piece of paper, but those don't hold it against you if you have it so long as you know what you’re doing.
I got my BSEE in 2002. After my first year at school I got a part-time job with a small company as the engineer grunt. I did everything from PLC software (simple modifications) to assembly and tech work (we’re an OEM). I learned as much working with the guys in the shop as I did working with the engineers in the office. Now that I’ve got my piece of paper I make a lot more than $15/hr even if you figure in 10hrs/week of OT I no longer get paid for. Thing is I can (and still do from time to time) work as a tech and that helps me create intelligent designs more than anything else.
I've found that when I go to a customer's location the first thing I have to do is figure out if they want to talk to the engineer who designed the system or the tech who can fix the problem caused by the engineers. Having a degree doesn't stop me from being the latter, but not having one would stop me from being the former.
As Bob put it engineers can work in the theoretical better than techs (generalization I know, but true most of the time). In any given month I call on knowledge learned getting my engineering degree maybe three times. The knowledge gained working as a tech I use every day. If you can find a part-time job as a tech and go to school at the same time do it. If you can’t find a job like that then go back and forth between being a tech and being a student. When you’ve got your piece of paper decide what you want to do, if you find a job you want where they’re looking for a tech then be a tech, the degree won’t keep you from getting the job.
MisInformed
Member
Get all the education that you can while you can. I did 12 years in the Marines working on radar systems and even designed a remote communication suite for bringing in remote radios into the radar van. Know what all that schooling and experience got me when I got out? An $8.00 an hour job working on a production line as a test technician. No piece of wall paper no nice job. It took me a couple years but I moved up to an engineering tech spot and started working with engineers. The one difference between an engineer and a tech, at least in the electronics area, is that an engineer can design a great system but he needs the tech to troubleshoot it for him. Only met 1 EE that had any orderly troubleshooting skills. Now I work at a new company as the only engineer and I do all kinds of work besides electronics. I have contractors in here all the time and I pick their brains about everything. I may not have the schooling of a degreed engineer but I have the commonsense to know where to find the info or who to call in order to find out. But I got lucky landing this job without a degree. You can't count on luck always being there so get your degree while you can.
Hi Guys, 
Everyone has to start somewhere. In my experience I would recommend starting with the 9 month premployment (basic electrical course). This will give you a good background if you decide to do engineering or Technology. This will give you insight into all the variuos jobs you will come across. And I agree with most people when they say that most engineers have the attitude that they know it all because they spent 5 yrs in school. It just don't work that way. Work experience is the best way to go. Most industrial places that I have worked, Unless the engineer is the super intendent, the electrician/technologist will make way more /yr then they do.
Preemployment and then apprenticeship + Electrical or Electronic technology is the way to go! That's what I did and it worked well for me. beerchug
Everyone has to start somewhere. In my experience I would recommend starting with the 9 month premployment (basic electrical course). This will give you a good background if you decide to do engineering or Technology. This will give you insight into all the variuos jobs you will come across. And I agree with most people when they say that most engineers have the attitude that they know it all because they spent 5 yrs in school.
It just don't work that way. Work experience is the best way to go. Most industrial places that I have worked, Unless the engineer is the super intendent, the electrician/technologist will make way more /yr then they do.Preemployment and then apprenticeship + Electrical or Electronic technology is the way to go! That's what I did and it worked well for me. beerchug
KEN_KACEL
Member
"Never let school interfere with your education"
====================================================
During the Carter years when alternative energy was just over the horizon I went to Jordan College, I left 14 credit hours short of a BS degree. Reaganomics put an end to that alternative energy career:
who needs solar, wind, biomass, alcohol fuel, ect. when oil is so cheap and plentiful. (May he rest in peace).So after a brief run down to Central America for the sake of solar energy, (7 degrees N lat. ideal solar production) I figured politics had squashed my career.
So off to tech school I go. 2 years striaght through parrelled with some commuity college credits (math,physics,higher level program lang). With Straight A's and my certificate I found a $7/hr service job. Had fun and was glad to be single. Traded for $7/hr bench tech in a R&D lab (best thing I could of done for my career: PLAY GROUND for Electronics). Introduced the first PLC in to the company. Now I do PLCs 100% in some very reputable companys (chrysler, acustar,ppg,ect.). Best of all I stayed at the top of my class(see quote at top).
But things got slow and I got worried. So I applied for an Engineering postion and the very large company I did 24 months of contract work for, by pulling their slimy primordial oozed butts into the new century and teaching thier in house engineers what a PLC was and how efficient their production could be said I was not qualified for their Engineering position, what a slap in the face. I am only considered a tech in their eyes and maint. is the highest level I would climb there. "But you can come back as contract and teach our engineers how to crawl around our controls world". Yeah right!! So if you embaress easily and status means alot to you get your BS degree. Me, I have forgiven PPG for their narrowed views and still retain them as a valued customer and know that my talents are second to none in their facility, but I won't hold that against them. So being student B, Life is good and bottom feeding ain't so bad at $56k/yr. I just can't take a vacation for fear of being obsoleted.
====================================================
During the Carter years when alternative energy was just over the horizon I went to Jordan College, I left 14 credit hours short of a BS degree. Reaganomics put an end to that alternative energy career:
who needs solar, wind, biomass, alcohol fuel, ect. when oil is so cheap and plentiful. (May he rest in peace).So after a brief run down to Central America for the sake of solar energy, (7 degrees N lat. ideal solar production) I figured politics had squashed my career.
So off to tech school I go. 2 years striaght through parrelled with some commuity college credits (math,physics,higher level program lang). With Straight A's and my certificate I found a $7/hr service job. Had fun and was glad to be single. Traded for $7/hr bench tech in a R&D lab (best thing I could of done for my career: PLAY GROUND for Electronics). Introduced the first PLC in to the company. Now I do PLCs 100% in some very reputable companys (chrysler, acustar,ppg,ect.). Best of all I stayed at the top of my class(see quote at top).
But things got slow and I got worried. So I applied for an Engineering postion and the very large company I did 24 months of contract work for, by pulling their slimy primordial oozed butts into the new century and teaching thier in house engineers what a PLC was and how efficient their production could be said I was not qualified for their Engineering position, what a slap in the face. I am only considered a tech in their eyes and maint. is the highest level I would climb there. "But you can come back as contract and teach our engineers how to crawl around our controls world". Yeah right!! So if you embaress easily and status means alot to you get your BS degree. Me, I have forgiven PPG for their narrowed views and still retain them as a valued customer and know that my talents are second to none in their facility, but I won't hold that against them. So being student B, Life is good and bottom feeding ain't so bad at $56k/yr. I just can't take a vacation for fear of being obsoleted.
akreel
Member
Sliver said:
You'll never escape it! At least, not if you're a respectable engineer. I'll admit, it's nice to be able to step back and let the union electricians handle everything. But, part of me always wants to be playing around in a control cabinet.
Like Tom, I think it's best to get your "humble beginnings," then finish/start your degree. Book-smart engineers are the guys who will try to upgrade a control system based off of prints alone, and can't tell you where the nearest Radio Shack is. The best place for guys like that is in a university or some big R&D outfit. I wouldn't have gotten anywhere in controls if I were afraid to crawl around in nasty places or work 16+ hour days.
It's very rewarding to be an engineer in jeans an work boots!
AK
MarkTTU
Lifetime Supporting Member
akreel said:
I agree completely (I'm in the middle, on the left is an AGE, and to the right is a ME).
Well I will say smth 2
right attitude
motivation
and persistance
This is an excellent place for information
during this month I learned how from the graphic the surface was calculatet thru an integral and then a math funstion was found and applied in the process, nice tricks with binary math, also fuse calculations and panel layout tips if is related to PLC's u will find it here
right attitude
motivation
and persistance
This is an excellent place for information
during this month I learned how from the graphic the surface was calculatet thru an integral and then a math funstion was found and applied in the process, nice tricks with binary math, also fuse calculations and panel layout tips if is related to PLC's u will find it here
Hi,
Whilst I can understand some of the views that are critical of
degrees I cant help but feel that they are essentially class based.
The ordinary technician from a working background is not brought
up with the same attitude to higher education as thoes in the higher
social class and is thus only able to perceive education as a means
to a better paid career/job.
I think its obvious that Engineering at the top level-i.e. design -
research etc, relies heavily on the ability to handle abstract
modelling and maths as well as other skills taught at university.
Whilst I can understand some of the views that are critical of
degrees I cant help but feel that they are essentially class based.
The ordinary technician from a working background is not brought
up with the same attitude to higher education as thoes in the higher
social class and is thus only able to perceive education as a means
to a better paid career/job.
I think its obvious that Engineering at the top level-i.e. design -
research etc, relies heavily on the ability to handle abstract
modelling and maths as well as other skills taught at university.
I find that a bit over the top. A broad statement on upper and lower class?
I enrolled for university but my father died and I had to go to work to help my mother support the family - even though it was only as a "lowly" electrical apprentice. I would gather that I belong to the "lower class" as my father was a toolmaker and die sinker and as a child my parents strugled to even keep food on the table. He was, in fact, one of the first toolmakers in the world to work with the assistance of a microscope making parts for hearing aids etc. He was offered a job in the US at a much higher rate of pay than most engineers but refused as he preferred to stay in Ozz. He was also the first one called upon at his place of work to comment/constructively criticize engineer's designs. They hated that.
I have since completed some courses of my choosing and was the state manager for a large electrical wholesaler in Ozz, amongst many other jobs at a high level, that I have occupied over the years.
I know of many other people that started out at the same sort of level as myself who have, over the years, gone to university and completed engineering degrees after finishing their trade course. These guys are generally very highly respected as they have experienced both ends of the spectrum and are far more practical in their approach to design work and far better handlers of trades people and issues that arise on job sites because they have "BEEN THERE, DONE THAT".
On the other hand, I recently quoted a job that was specified and being controlled by an academic electrical engineer. He has a doctorate. Highly intelligent, thorough, works through every little part of the job to the point that he is totally impractical to the point of being perdantic and not cost effective at all. Great theory and research man but hopeless in the real world. The job was going to cost a fortune for no good reason.
The other thing that really "peed" me off was that he wanted a highly technical offer. I offered him 17 pages of technical information which really came down to the point that I designed most of the job before putting in my offer. None of the other tenderers offered the same amount of technical information. He lost a tenderer and, in his infinite wisdom, asked the 2 tenderers left to re-tender with another 5 companies added to the list. Remarkably, large sections of my technical offer were cut and pasted straight into the new specification. The parts were practical, highly detailed and will work to the clients satisfaction while saving a heap of money. I withdrew. Several of the new tenderers contacted me as they knew straight away who had written the cut and pasted parts. Several of them also withdrew.
I, and many like me, may not know or be able to understand many of the high end mathematical calculations engineers carry out but we are generally far more practical in our approach to a job and can generally save the client money while completing the job to his satisfaction. We call upon those people and their expertise, when required, to assist in completion of the project, as they call upon us for the same reasons.
I admire people like Peter Nachtway who are able to calculate sliding control etc and who also seem to be very practical people. Take a bow Peter, if you are listening. I partially understand where he is coming from but do not have knowledge of or understand the formulae that he expounds. I also admire a brick layer that is very good at his job. I am darn sure that I cannot do it. People who live in glass houses should not throw stones.
By the way, my chosen university course was electrical engineering. It was my second choice. I will not bother you with my first choice.
By the way Phil. I hope this does not break the guidelines for the site. My sincere apologies if it does but I am afraid that George got under my skin.
I find that a bit over the top. A broad statement on upper and lower class?
I enrolled for university but my father died and I had to go to work to help my mother support the family - even though it was only as a "lowly" electrical apprentice. I would gather that I belong to the "lower class" as my father was a toolmaker and die sinker and as a child my parents strugled to even keep food on the table. He was, in fact, one of the first toolmakers in the world to work with the assistance of a microscope making parts for hearing aids etc. He was offered a job in the US at a much higher rate of pay than most engineers but refused as he preferred to stay in Ozz. He was also the first one called upon at his place of work to comment/constructively criticize engineer's designs. They hated that.
I have since completed some courses of my choosing and was the state manager for a large electrical wholesaler in Ozz, amongst many other jobs at a high level, that I have occupied over the years.
I know of many other people that started out at the same sort of level as myself who have, over the years, gone to university and completed engineering degrees after finishing their trade course. These guys are generally very highly respected as they have experienced both ends of the spectrum and are far more practical in their approach to design work and far better handlers of trades people and issues that arise on job sites because they have "BEEN THERE, DONE THAT".
On the other hand, I recently quoted a job that was specified and being controlled by an academic electrical engineer. He has a doctorate. Highly intelligent, thorough, works through every little part of the job to the point that he is totally impractical to the point of being perdantic and not cost effective at all. Great theory and research man but hopeless in the real world. The job was going to cost a fortune for no good reason.
The other thing that really "peed" me off was that he wanted a highly technical offer. I offered him 17 pages of technical information which really came down to the point that I designed most of the job before putting in my offer. None of the other tenderers offered the same amount of technical information. He lost a tenderer and, in his infinite wisdom, asked the 2 tenderers left to re-tender with another 5 companies added to the list. Remarkably, large sections of my technical offer were cut and pasted straight into the new specification. The parts were practical, highly detailed and will work to the clients satisfaction while saving a heap of money. I withdrew. Several of the new tenderers contacted me as they knew straight away who had written the cut and pasted parts. Several of them also withdrew.
I, and many like me, may not know or be able to understand many of the high end mathematical calculations engineers carry out but we are generally far more practical in our approach to a job and can generally save the client money while completing the job to his satisfaction. We call upon those people and their expertise, when required, to assist in completion of the project, as they call upon us for the same reasons.
I admire people like Peter Nachtway who are able to calculate sliding control etc and who also seem to be very practical people. Take a bow Peter, if you are listening. I partially understand where he is coming from but do not have knowledge of or understand the formulae that he expounds. I also admire a brick layer that is very good at his job. I am darn sure that I cannot do it. People who live in glass houses should not throw stones.
By the way, my chosen university course was electrical engineering. It was my second choice. I will not bother you with my first choice.
Peter Nachtwey
Member
Thanks Bob.
I have said a few times that many of my posts are not meant to be understood by everyone. The mathematics are usually posted to back up a point that I am trying to make and are usually targeted at engineers. In some cases it is to stimulate interest. In other cases the purpose is to 'challenge' engineers to be real engineers instead of just doing what has been done before. In any case I am usually show what can be done with a little 'engineering' and to dispell myths.
I have a BSEE and BSCE. I do not have a Phd, but we must compete with companies that do. Because of that I have had to continually learn and stay current with the state of the art. Like many of you, I got my advanced education from the shool of life. This education has come from reading a books many times and in some cases reading many books on the same topic because one author may say something slightly different that 'turns on the light'. I don't see how a college student can learn what is necessary reading only the book required for the class.
I have been fortunate to be in a position where I have the time and resources to persue these advanced topics. Also, we often are asked by our customers for engineering advice. This way we get involved with many projects each year without being tied down to have the responsibity of actually making the project work. Through this applicaton experience we learn what makes a better.
BobB said:
I have said a few times that many of my posts are not meant to be understood by everyone. The mathematics are usually posted to back up a point that I am trying to make and are usually targeted at engineers. In some cases it is to stimulate interest. In other cases the purpose is to 'challenge' engineers to be real engineers instead of just doing what has been done before. In any case I am usually show what can be done with a little 'engineering' and to dispell myths.
I have a BSEE and BSCE. I do not have a Phd, but we must compete with companies that do. Because of that I have had to continually learn and stay current with the state of the art. Like many of you, I got my advanced education from the shool of life. This education has come from reading a books many times and in some cases reading many books on the same topic because one author may say something slightly different that 'turns on the light'. I don't see how a college student can learn what is necessary reading only the book required for the class.
I have been fortunate to be in a position where I have the time and resources to persue these advanced topics. Also, we often are asked by our customers for engineering advice. This way we get involved with many projects each year without being tied down to have the responsibity of actually making the project work. Through this applicaton experience we learn what makes a better.
akreel
Member
Re: Thanks Bob.
No kidding! Think about it, if you have a serious interest in something you join clubs, read books/magazines, and go to internet forums. Some day you'll realize you're talking like a pro, and you'll never be sure how you go there.
AK
Peter Nachtwey said:
No kidding! Think about it, if you have a serious interest in something you join clubs, read books/magazines, and go to internet forums. Some day you'll realize you're talking like a pro, and you'll never be sure how you go there.
AK