PLucas
Member
So tell me George, what do you perceive education as a means of?
Something to keep you occupied until you inherit daddy's fortune?
Paul
?????
- Thread starter SeanLee
- Start date
So tell me George, what do you perceive education as a means of?
Something to keep you occupied until you inherit daddy's fortune?
Paul
Hi Plucas,
You asked about my perception of education and it is this.
Historically the function of all forms of higher learning
was for the intellectual/cultural/spiritual betterment of the
recepient.In all this there was no mention of work or career
as that was not the aim of learning.
We had in place until recently,Polytechnics for the training
of artisans and engineers.This was their function whilst the
university fulfilled the function of higher learning for its
own sake.Indeed to even try for a place at even an average
university one had to be in the top few percent of the IQ range.
Now alas all and sundry can go.How one must ask is that possible
unless you admit the obvious i.e. the lowering of standards.
There is noway that a degree now is as rigorous as say thirty
years ago-no matter what politicians say in their haste for an
all inclusive society.Any -even superficial glance at old
exam papers,syllabis,old text books etc-will show that students
today do not know or understand as much.This has been confirmed to
me by older lecturers privately-for fear of speaking out-to be the
case.Indeed most students today would never have been let in to a
Poly let alone a university 30 years ago.
You asked about my perception of education and it is this.
Historically the function of all forms of higher learning
was for the intellectual/cultural/spiritual betterment of the
recepient.In all this there was no mention of work or career
as that was not the aim of learning.
We had in place until recently,Polytechnics for the training
of artisans and engineers.This was their function whilst the
university fulfilled the function of higher learning for its
own sake.Indeed to even try for a place at even an average
university one had to be in the top few percent of the IQ range.
Now alas all and sundry can go.How one must ask is that possible
unless you admit the obvious i.e. the lowering of standards.
There is noway that a degree now is as rigorous as say thirty
years ago-no matter what politicians say in their haste for an
all inclusive society.Any -even superficial glance at old
exam papers,syllabis,old text books etc-will show that students
today do not know or understand as much.This has been confirmed to
me by older lecturers privately-for fear of speaking out-to be the
case.Indeed most students today would never have been let in to a
Poly let alone a university 30 years ago.
MarkTTU
Lifetime Supporting Member
Couple of comments, though I admit I do not know if they apply to the other side of the pond, but they sure apply here...
Higher education back until a few decades ago existed to expand learning without much thought to practical application. I'd even agree that 30 years ago admision standards as compared the general population were much more strict, but by 30 years ago if you wanted to be an engineer you still had to go to a univeristy to be taken seriously.
Now while admission standards are lower today compared to the general population, the actual requirements are more difficult. You'd be hard pressed to find anyone that entered a university 30 years ago and had already taken a formal calculus class before attempting the admision test, while today this ins't exactly normal it is very common (at least for engineering degrees).
If I'd graduated in 2002 with only the knowledge that would have been imparted to me by any electrical engineering program 30 years ago I wouldn't be able to find a job to save my life. 30 years ago there weren't required courses on integrated circuit design, 30ghz microwave data links, DSP programming, BASIC programming, etc... What little of those fields did exist was all still in the research phase, its what the PHDs teaching the undergraduate classes were working on in their labs. Today those subjects are required, and things like vacuum tubes are necissarily minimalized to make time. At the same time I don't expect in 30 years to hear any EE student talking about their BASIC programming class, but I bet they'll be talking about their ion drive theory class.
In short what is assumed to be the base level of knowledge for an engineer goes up with every generation of engineers. While in school I loved my RF design classes. If I continue designing control systems for the next 30 years I don't expect to be able to have an intelligent conversation with a recent engineer graduate in 2040 about any "basic" communication theory, the technology will have changed and I won't have kept up. Now if that same engineer graduate wants to talk about the current state of PLC's or control design in 2040 I'd better be able to teach him some things they didn't teach him in school, both current tech and old tech.
In short there's practical experiance and theoretical experiance and they're both more or less useless by themselves. Mixed together in the right proportion gives you a really good technician or engineer, but which will depend much more on personallity of the individual, not the amount of practical or theoretical experiance.
Most of the comments made by myself and others in this thread can be summed up pretty quick.
1)Practical knowledge will allow you to make some money and get a job.
2)Schooling will never hurt your ability to make money or get a job.
3)You might be able to get a high paying job without any schooling, but you're more likely to get one with it than without it.
OK, I'll get off the soap box now...
-Mark
Higher education back until a few decades ago existed to expand learning without much thought to practical application. I'd even agree that 30 years ago admision standards as compared the general population were much more strict, but by 30 years ago if you wanted to be an engineer you still had to go to a univeristy to be taken seriously.
Now while admission standards are lower today compared to the general population, the actual requirements are more difficult. You'd be hard pressed to find anyone that entered a university 30 years ago and had already taken a formal calculus class before attempting the admision test, while today this ins't exactly normal it is very common (at least for engineering degrees).
If I'd graduated in 2002 with only the knowledge that would have been imparted to me by any electrical engineering program 30 years ago I wouldn't be able to find a job to save my life. 30 years ago there weren't required courses on integrated circuit design, 30ghz microwave data links, DSP programming, BASIC programming, etc... What little of those fields did exist was all still in the research phase, its what the PHDs teaching the undergraduate classes were working on in their labs. Today those subjects are required, and things like vacuum tubes are necissarily minimalized to make time. At the same time I don't expect in 30 years to hear any EE student talking about their BASIC programming class, but I bet they'll be talking about their ion drive theory class.
In short what is assumed to be the base level of knowledge for an engineer goes up with every generation of engineers. While in school I loved my RF design classes. If I continue designing control systems for the next 30 years I don't expect to be able to have an intelligent conversation with a recent engineer graduate in 2040 about any "basic" communication theory, the technology will have changed and I won't have kept up. Now if that same engineer graduate wants to talk about the current state of PLC's or control design in 2040 I'd better be able to teach him some things they didn't teach him in school, both current tech and old tech.
In short there's practical experiance and theoretical experiance and they're both more or less useless by themselves. Mixed together in the right proportion gives you a really good technician or engineer, but which will depend much more on personallity of the individual, not the amount of practical or theoretical experiance.
Most of the comments made by myself and others in this thread can be summed up pretty quick.
1)Practical knowledge will allow you to make some money and get a job.
2)Schooling will never hurt your ability to make money or get a job.
3)You might be able to get a high paying job without any schooling, but you're more likely to get one with it than without it.
OK, I'll get off the soap box now...
-Mark
elevmike
Member
My final 2 cents..
When I was leaning Cobol, Basic, etc in school, I did it with a shoe box full of punch cards. This was at a time when PCs were in their infancy, and time sharing was the "future". I never saw a punch card after that, (except for on the news a few years ago). And I dont ever remember programming anything in Fortran, or Cobol in the real world.
What I really learned in the halls of higher learning was PROBLEM SOLVING. Scheduling, working under deadlines, how to deal with negative feed back on performance (poor grades), and taking it as constructive criticism, how to adapt to different environments, dealing with political issues, dealing with multiple projects of various types at the same time, and that Proper Prior Planning Prevents Pi$$ Poor Performance.
A 4 year degree demonstrates some ability to put forth an effort all the way through the completed task. AKA fortitude, self motivation, perseverance, etc.. These are the most valuable tools that you will walk away with. The sheep skin demonstrates this to others.
Good night.
When I was leaning Cobol, Basic, etc in school, I did it with a shoe box full of punch cards. This was at a time when PCs were in their infancy, and time sharing was the "future". I never saw a punch card after that, (except for on the news a few years ago). And I dont ever remember programming anything in Fortran, or Cobol in the real world.
What I really learned in the halls of higher learning was PROBLEM SOLVING. Scheduling, working under deadlines, how to deal with negative feed back on performance (poor grades), and taking it as constructive criticism, how to adapt to different environments, dealing with political issues, dealing with multiple projects of various types at the same time, and that Proper Prior Planning Prevents Pi$$ Poor Performance.
A 4 year degree demonstrates some ability to put forth an effort all the way through the completed task. AKA fortitude, self motivation, perseverance, etc.. These are the most valuable tools that you will walk away with. The sheep skin demonstrates this to others.
Good night.
lynn davis
Member
I just had to add mine on this list.
I am the Field Service Manager for a machinery manufacture, There is nothing wrong with extended schooling if it is indeed what you want for a career.
No one can take it back after you learn it!
I started as a Millwright setting equipment and learned the electrical and programing on the fly. If you love it you can learn it.
I do kid our engineers and tell them we tech's do what they only dream of.
I still do the hands on stuff and probily will to the day I die, I find nothing that compares to finding problems that others couldn't and then take the time to explain how I found it.
I love to help, thats why I love this site.
Keep digging.
Lynn
I am the Field Service Manager for a machinery manufacture, There is nothing wrong with extended schooling if it is indeed what you want for a career.
No one can take it back after you learn it!
I started as a Millwright setting equipment and learned the electrical and programing on the fly. If you love it you can learn it.
I do kid our engineers and tell them we tech's do what they only dream of.
I still do the hands on stuff and probily will to the day I die, I find nothing that compares to finding problems that others couldn't and then take the time to explain how I found it.
I love to help, thats why I love this site.
Keep digging.
Lynn
testsubject
Member
Welcome, come on in...
Welcome to the Forum, Lynn.
Welcome to the Forum, Lynn.
marksji said:
The accounts, they converge for a same point (the formation of experience, relations of knowledge) with simple meaning: Half practical, straight and flexible of convert problems in solutions, and the efficiency (smaller time consumed / efficient) of this in cash
I deepen more, that books the teachers we read? For it educate, guide the education?
To today, I do not know an indívidual that took initiative of boldness for write a book, that demostrate, guide as form the experience. Some author for automation sector?
Everybody, they remain aware it perceive the same detail, the association of knowledge, ideas that elevated to knowledge: understand a problem, create a solution... ...
Summary the wisdom, remains in secret, that is feared in reveal (teach) by lose the highlight, I shine (or work, placed function)
But those that they revealed, in the history, they became philosopher
akreel
Member
dandrade said:
Phil (our forum leader) wrote a book. Have you seen it here on the message board?
Yes, already I looked Congratulations to who already dedicated to automation.
Not talk about information, the several points of sights that is presented an information.
You I read some book, that advanced and balanced the experience to who has decades in the area? This it is the focus.
Sorry you, not to have understood.
Not talk about information, the several points of sights that is presented an information.
You I read some book, that advanced and balanced the experience to who has decades in the area? This it is the focus.
Sorry you, not to have understood.
