HansAndersen
Member
In my company, we had been using ABB DC drivers.And we had had too many problems with them.Finally, we have changed them with other cards we ourselves produced.At the moment our brains are free and comfortable.
AC Drives... Which is the best?
- Thread starter emokar
- Start date
JRW
Member
emokar said:
Siemens drives are designed for engineers, they are "systems" drives. All the parameters have a use- just because you dont know what they do doesnt mean they are useless.
I have used Masterdrives and Simoregs for years on converting lines and there is nothing these drives cant do
Tackdriver
Member
I find control techniques drives to be little more than junk.
My hands-down favorite is Allen Bradley.
If the budget is a concern, Yaskawa. I like them as well as some of the more "marquee" names and they have treated me well. I use the F7's on my exturders to replace the CT DC drives that were originally on the machine. We have found AC drives to be much better than their DC counterparts. I also use their V7 Hp drives on my smaller machines and they are outstanding. I even use them in apps where all I want is a "soft starter", their price lets me do this.
Telemechanique is OK for non-critical apps, but nothing to write home about.
My next drive purchase is probably going to be an Automation Direct in 40 HP. I am going to be converting a small extruder, and I want to do it on a tight budget with a AC motor we already own.
My hands-down favorite is Allen Bradley.
If the budget is a concern, Yaskawa. I like them as well as some of the more "marquee" names and they have treated me well. I use the F7's on my exturders to replace the CT DC drives that were originally on the machine. We have found AC drives to be much better than their DC counterparts. I also use their V7 Hp drives on my smaller machines and they are outstanding. I even use them in apps where all I want is a "soft starter", their price lets me do this.
Telemechanique is OK for non-critical apps, but nothing to write home about.
My next drive purchase is probably going to be an Automation Direct in 40 HP. I am going to be converting a small extruder, and I want to do it on a tight budget with a AC motor we already own.
JRW said:
i am an engineer ,too. there is nothing i can't understand or use about any drive. this is not because i am an engineer , of course.
anyway , my point is most of drive applications do not need those parameters. Why sould i pay for parameters i will never use? there could be more simple models.. Many drives only works with a simple potentiometer or an analog reference. I do not mean complex applications obviously..
Its hard to find someone in Siemens for support unlike other brands,too.
By the way , Moeller is a disaster. I remembered a machine i have programmed. There were over 80 moeller drives between 1,1 kW and 90 kW. I was surprised learning that new Moeller drives dont have shock preventing bobbin(sorry i dont know exact english term, i mean the coil that filters peaks of current).
Andrew Ishaq
Member
Best Drive
GE VAT2000 is the Best.
GE VAT2000 is the Best.
allscott
Member
- Join Date
- Jul 2004
- Posts
- 1,332
First of all, the drives I have used: (or ; now I am paranoid)
AC:
AB (1336, pflex 40,70,700), Siemens (micromaster, masterdrive), SewEeurodrive (movitrac), ABB (ACS 600, ACS 550), Reliance (GV 3000, GV 3000 bookshelf), Yakasawa (don't remember), Avtron/Cuttler hammer (SVX 9000), GE (don't remember), Toshiba (don't remember) Indramat (DKR), Parker servos, Eurotherm.
DC:
AB (1395), Reliance (MaxPak, FlexPak 3000), Siemens (simoreg), Eurotherm, SAF.
My verdict: (subjective mind you)
1. Siemens. Siemens is in my opinion is the most reliable and difficult to program drive on the market. These drives are designed for the engineer that needs maximum flexibility. You can do anything with a Siemens drive although the simplest things can seem hard. As far as downright reliability I rate them at number 1.
2. AB 1395. I have found these to be almost as reliable as #1. The advantage here is that they are much easier to program although not as versatile.
3. AB Powerflex. Drives for dummies. I can program one of these with a blindfold and my arms tied. Not an insult but a comnpliment for ease of useability. I am still not sold on the reliability.
4. ABB. Very powerful and reliable. Their DTC control was way ahead of the game 10 years ago, some manufacturers still haven't kept up to this technology. The reason I rate them at 3 is because of issues with tech support and hassle occured when "upgrading ACS 600's to ACS 550's" several years ago)
5. Yakasawa,SAF,Toshiba. I rate these together as kind of a "middle of the pack" experience for me. All of the systems that had these drives worked quite reliably, however I never had much to do with them so I can't form a good/bad opinion.
6. Cuttler Hammer. Just simply had bad luck / tech support with these
7. Indramat. This is a servo drive so maybe not a fair comparrison but I hated these things with a passion. The Tech support was absolutely ridiculous and repair costs were criminal. The performance of these things when they worked was phenomenal.
8. SEW Eurodrive. Blew these things up like firecrackers, never could get an answer from them what was wrong, or what to check or what to do, just replaced them on a regular basis
9. Reliance GV Series. The biggest piece of dung I have ever worked with. I have replaced dozens of these things. Tech support is no help, simply a piece of junk.
DC DRIVE VERDICT;
1. Reliance Max pak. These things were designed in the early 1970's and are still in use. Some of the components eventually wear out after several decades of service but with a good PM program and occasional tuning these will run forever.
2. Siemens Simoreg. These things just run and run. With the exception of the difficulty in programming noted in my AC drive list, I can't find a problem with these.
3. AB 1395. Also a very good drive, I have found reliability to be good and tech support excellent.
4. Eurotherm/SAF. I know that these are not related but I group them together because I know them to be trouble free but do not have the experience with them to form a concrete judgement.
5. Reliance Flexpak 3000. The only drive that I would bury underneath a GV3000 is the Flexpak 3000. I won't go into details but all I can say is don't walk, run!!!!
These are my honest opinions based on my experience which is not as great or varied as some here. I do not represent or sell any particular drive manufactuer. I offer these opinions objectively as an end user. I would love to here from those who either concur or have different opinions.
I hope my spelling and gramar is sufficient for the forum. Although since I've typed this long and it will be posted anyway I guess it's a mute point
AC:
AB (1336, pflex 40,70,700), Siemens (micromaster, masterdrive), SewEeurodrive (movitrac), ABB (ACS 600, ACS 550), Reliance (GV 3000, GV 3000 bookshelf), Yakasawa (don't remember), Avtron/Cuttler hammer (SVX 9000), GE (don't remember), Toshiba (don't remember) Indramat (DKR), Parker servos, Eurotherm.
DC:
AB (1395), Reliance (MaxPak, FlexPak 3000), Siemens (simoreg), Eurotherm, SAF.
My verdict: (subjective mind you)
1. Siemens. Siemens is in my opinion is the most reliable and difficult to program drive on the market. These drives are designed for the engineer that needs maximum flexibility. You can do anything with a Siemens drive although the simplest things can seem hard. As far as downright reliability I rate them at number 1.
2. AB 1395. I have found these to be almost as reliable as #1. The advantage here is that they are much easier to program although not as versatile.
3. AB Powerflex. Drives for dummies. I can program one of these with a blindfold and my arms tied. Not an insult but a comnpliment for ease of useability. I am still not sold on the reliability.
4. ABB. Very powerful and reliable. Their DTC control was way ahead of the game 10 years ago, some manufacturers still haven't kept up to this technology. The reason I rate them at 3 is because of issues with tech support and hassle occured when "upgrading ACS 600's to ACS 550's" several years ago)
5. Yakasawa,SAF,Toshiba. I rate these together as kind of a "middle of the pack" experience for me. All of the systems that had these drives worked quite reliably, however I never had much to do with them so I can't form a good/bad opinion.
6. Cuttler Hammer. Just simply had bad luck / tech support with these
7. Indramat. This is a servo drive so maybe not a fair comparrison but I hated these things with a passion. The Tech support was absolutely ridiculous and repair costs were criminal. The performance of these things when they worked was phenomenal.
8. SEW Eurodrive. Blew these things up like firecrackers, never could get an answer from them what was wrong, or what to check or what to do, just replaced them on a regular basis
9. Reliance GV Series. The biggest piece of dung I have ever worked with. I have replaced dozens of these things. Tech support is no help, simply a piece of junk.
DC DRIVE VERDICT;
1. Reliance Max pak. These things were designed in the early 1970's and are still in use. Some of the components eventually wear out after several decades of service but with a good PM program and occasional tuning these will run forever.
2. Siemens Simoreg. These things just run and run. With the exception of the difficulty in programming noted in my AC drive list, I can't find a problem with these.
3. AB 1395. Also a very good drive, I have found reliability to be good and tech support excellent.
4. Eurotherm/SAF. I know that these are not related but I group them together because I know them to be trouble free but do not have the experience with them to form a concrete judgement.
5. Reliance Flexpak 3000. The only drive that I would bury underneath a GV3000 is the Flexpak 3000. I won't go into details but all I can say is don't walk, run!!!!
These are my honest opinions based on my experience which is not as great or varied as some here. I do not represent or sell any particular drive manufactuer. I offer these opinions objectively as an end user. I would love to here from those who either concur or have different opinions.
I hope my spelling and gramar is sufficient for the forum. Although since I've typed this long and it will be posted anyway I guess it's a mute point
seppoalanen
Member
More information and manuals, see www.vacon.com.allscott said:
It is Vacon product in Europe and my favourite.
Very simple use with Profibus DB.
PhilipW
Member
AllScott,
Thanks for taking the time to post that. A thoughtful comparison like that is of far more value than a simple "hurrah" for your most familiar brand.
My only reservation is that many of the products you mention are not a single product as such, but a range of products. PowerFlex (the one I am familiar with) is not one product, but includes PowerFlex 4, 40, 40P and 400 family and then the 70, 700 family with 700H, 700S, 700L variants and then there is the MV 7000 product.
There is a wide variation in the designs targets across the PowerFlex brand name:
PowerFlex 4 is targeted at the very basic low power applicatiions upt to 5HP.
PowerFlex 40 is targeted at low power apps, simple comms and medium levels of application complexity and ease of use up to 15HP. The flange mount versions are really useful for enclosing in NEMA4/IP66 style arrangements. The latest versions now extend to quite powerful indexing and postioning applications.
PowerFlex 400 is the same class of product as the 40, but optimises for fan and pump applications up to 100HP
The PowerFlex 4/40/400 family is targeted at the commercial HVAC, pumping and contractor market, where price is a major driver. All of them use a simple RS-485 based comms architecture for simple low cost networking.
The PowerFlex 70/700/7000 are the flagship drives with leading edge performance, heavy duty torque control at zero speed, high level comms and application complexity. These drives are used in demanding industrial systems and/or where the client requires exceedingly low noise levels. With these drives you are buying no compromise designs with superb reliability. These drives all use the DPI based communications for high speed, full CIP parameter access, remote prorgammability and lots adaptors to a whole range of iindustry standard networks.
All of the above can be programmed with DriveExplorer. Those of you who may have been put off a little by DE's early versions should have another look, at Version 4 I'm finding it a very complete and reliable tool.
The old 1305 was a reliable workhorse but is now replaced by the PowerFlex 40. Someone mentioned the 160's. Early versions of this before Series D did have some real issues, but by the end of the product lifecycle they were actually quite a decent little drive...shame it took three or four revisions to get there. But they too are well and truly off the market now as well...the PowerFlex 4 is their replacement.
I guess my major poiint here is that when referring to "AB PowerFlex" it is as well to bear in mind that this is NOT a product, but a brandname. An issue that may arise with say a PowerFlex4 is likely to have no bearing at all on the performance of a PowerFlex 700...they are totally different drives in reality.
Thanks for taking the time to post that. A thoughtful comparison like that is of far more value than a simple "hurrah" for your most familiar brand.
My only reservation is that many of the products you mention are not a single product as such, but a range of products. PowerFlex (the one I am familiar with) is not one product, but includes PowerFlex 4, 40, 40P and 400 family and then the 70, 700 family with 700H, 700S, 700L variants and then there is the MV 7000 product.
There is a wide variation in the designs targets across the PowerFlex brand name:
PowerFlex 4 is targeted at the very basic low power applicatiions upt to 5HP.
PowerFlex 40 is targeted at low power apps, simple comms and medium levels of application complexity and ease of use up to 15HP. The flange mount versions are really useful for enclosing in NEMA4/IP66 style arrangements. The latest versions now extend to quite powerful indexing and postioning applications.
PowerFlex 400 is the same class of product as the 40, but optimises for fan and pump applications up to 100HP
The PowerFlex 4/40/400 family is targeted at the commercial HVAC, pumping and contractor market, where price is a major driver. All of them use a simple RS-485 based comms architecture for simple low cost networking.
The PowerFlex 70/700/7000 are the flagship drives with leading edge performance, heavy duty torque control at zero speed, high level comms and application complexity. These drives are used in demanding industrial systems and/or where the client requires exceedingly low noise levels. With these drives you are buying no compromise designs with superb reliability. These drives all use the DPI based communications for high speed, full CIP parameter access, remote prorgammability and lots adaptors to a whole range of iindustry standard networks.
All of the above can be programmed with DriveExplorer. Those of you who may have been put off a little by DE's early versions should have another look, at Version 4 I'm finding it a very complete and reliable tool.
The old 1305 was a reliable workhorse but is now replaced by the PowerFlex 40. Someone mentioned the 160's. Early versions of this before Series D did have some real issues, but by the end of the product lifecycle they were actually quite a decent little drive...shame it took three or four revisions to get there. But they too are well and truly off the market now as well...the PowerFlex 4 is their replacement.
I guess my major poiint here is that when referring to "AB PowerFlex" it is as well to bear in mind that this is NOT a product, but a brandname. An issue that may arise with say a PowerFlex4 is likely to have no bearing at all on the performance of a PowerFlex 700...they are totally different drives in reality.
Last edited:
yxannes said:
I've recently configured a SEW servo drive for a simple indexing application that I'm very happy with, using their Movidrive B with a servo motor and resolver feedback and controlled over Profibus from a Siemens PLC. The performance of this system is fast and precise without being overwhelmingly difficult to configure.
In particular the technical support for this drive from SEW Australia has been outstandingly good, the best I've had from a supplier ever I think.
504bloke
Lifetime Supporting Member
kamenges said:
They dont.......
IMHO, I think everyone should state the kind of environment the drives are in and their working hours to be fair. For me, my environment is very harsh.
In a sheltered shed but basically outdoors. Metallic dust from flame cutting and welding, dust and sand coming from all over the place (in a concrete yard) and dirty power source.
AND they work 24/7. (Yes in asia, we emphasize productivity and people view us as workaholics or slave drivers)
For AC and PM motors, SEW is pretty much bulletproof. 4 yrs of 24/7 hrs with no major problems. I even had gearboxes wear out before the motors.
I wouldn't say the same for their drives. Most of our drives consists of Movidrives A and Movitracs and the odd Control Technique.
The Movidrive As we had pop pretty frequently. Made us conclude that SEW drives are not designed for harsh environments, at least for their older drives. That's why I was asking for comments on their new Movidrive B and how it performs on a previous post.
In a sheltered shed but basically outdoors. Metallic dust from flame cutting and welding, dust and sand coming from all over the place (in a concrete yard) and dirty power source.
AND they work 24/7. (Yes in asia, we emphasize productivity and people view us as workaholics or slave drivers)
For AC and PM motors, SEW is pretty much bulletproof. 4 yrs of 24/7 hrs with no major problems. I even had gearboxes wear out before the motors.
I wouldn't say the same for their drives. Most of our drives consists of Movidrives A and Movitracs and the odd Control Technique.
The Movidrive As we had pop pretty frequently. Made us conclude that SEW drives are not designed for harsh environments, at least for their older drives. That's why I was asking for comments on their new Movidrive B and how it performs on a previous post.
Binaural said:
rsdoran
Lifetime Supporting Member
You are not being fair to SEW; the conditions you described would be too harsh for just about any, if not all, solid state devices.
I am assuming from your comments that either the drive was exposed or in an unsealed type enclosure. If you had taken the time to enclose the SEW drive, or any drive, in an enclosure for outdoor use, that incorporated air purge/pressure and/or heat/cooling; then the drives may still be there.
Even when a device is rated for a harsh environment an endeavor should be made to remove as much of the adverse conditions as possible.
I am assuming from your comments that either the drive was exposed or in an unsealed type enclosure. If you had taken the time to enclose the SEW drive, or any drive, in an enclosure for outdoor use, that incorporated air purge/pressure and/or heat/cooling; then the drives may still be there.
Even when a device is rated for a harsh environment an endeavor should be made to remove as much of the adverse conditions as possible.
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