backdrivable gears

Most helical, planetary, and spur gear systems can be backdriven. In other words, when torque is applied to the "output" shaft the input will rotate. A good example is an auto transmission and differential, which can be backdriven when you are pushing a car to start it.

As Dick points out, the most common exception is a worm gear with a ratio of greater than 25:1 or 30:1. In this case the friction between the worm and the gear is high enough to prevent backdriving. Note that you should not count on this to stop or hold a load, especially if there is vibration present. The vibration results in lessening the contact force between the worm and the gear, which will allow the load to creep. If you want to hold a load securely, you should use a brake.
 
I'll take a stab at it

Your first post mentions gearboxes and further down you write that 'servos' failed. In the robotics sense I'm familiar with what I think you're getting at is called 'softness' - at least it is in the ABB realm.

If the softness of an axis is set to '100' (this is arbitrary, it could be '0') then when the arm encounters resistance going to its commanded position it will not try to overcome this resistance to get to the position. Decreasing values increase the effort the control system will apply to get to the position. At the point of zero softness the maximum effort will be applied and things might break!

Does this sound like what you're after?
 
Originally posted by student_ucsd:
We need to move an arm and allow for random forces to be applied on the mechanism without it failing, and it needs to be very safe.

And thus the application comes out. That should steer the responses some. Is this arm limited in rotation or can it spin indefinitely? It sounds like this will be interacting with people. Do you have maximum force/torque and speed numbers nailed down?

Originally posted by student_ucsd:

The servos used failed after two days due to too many of these resistant forces applied on the arm, and the pneumatics arent safe enough for our project.


What was the failure mode on the servo? Did you yield the gearbox or did you fry a motor or drive? Or did the arm break because the backdrive forces were too high? What gearbox type and reduction were you using? Why are pneumatics not safe enough? Does the axis move too fast or are the forces not controllable enough? Is this assessment based on a design iteration or is it based on a design review? What have you tried with pneumatics?

It sounds like you have tried enough stuff that with a little prompting fronm the studio audience we can move you in the right direction.

Keith
 
Go to a flea market & purchase an old wind up clock. remove the pallet lever or verge so the escape wheel is free to turn. oil the thing with some WD 40. then you will have a model to play with.Tie a string on the great wheel & use a fish scale to measure the force required to " back drive the gear train" then count the ratios. then tie the string on the 2nd wheel & again measure the torque, re-count the ratios repeat on the third wheel using some math & graph paper plot the result. present this to the instructor. you will have learned much for less $ than a text book
 
I don't Think You're Referring to Back Drive

student_ucsd said:
We need to move an arm and allow for random forces to be applied on the mechanism without it failing, and it needs to be very safe.

I think what you're trying to say is that you need to ensure that loads applied to end of the arm will not cause a mechanical failure.

If this is in fact a gear train then all you need to do is use standard equations from any gear design handbook to ensure that whatever you anticipate the maximum load to be does not overload the torque capacity of the gear train.

If you really are trying to determine the reistance to backdrive and want to use that to prevent movement like Tom said you need to use a brake.
 
student_ucsd said:
Its funny that when I post on forums similar to this yet intended for video game discussion I get similar non-informant, seeminly childish responses except on those boards they are actually from children. I find it odd that a person, who I assume is some sort of professional, would take the time to read my post and respond numorous times without saying more then one bit of usefull information, all the while trying as hard as possible to act smarter than a student.
With all due respect, you are in a PLC forum. No PLC I know of has "gears", backdriveable, "forwarddriveable" or otherwise. You really have no basis to criticize any reply to your initial thread. No offense.

Actually, if you knew this forum well, you would know that rsdoran is a great contributor to this forum.
 
With any luck our good student will return. We really don't have enough info to know what he is trying to do exactly. However, the way I read his posts he is looking for one of two things:
1) He wants something to hold his arm in position until a force threshold is exceeded. At this point the arm will move under that force. I'm not sure if it should return to the original position after the force is released or if it should stay where it is.

2) He wants something to sit and wait for a small motion caused by a known, adjustable force. When that motion occurs continue moving the arm in the direction of the motion until it reaches some poistion, at which point it stops. This would be similar to the function of assisted door openers at hospitals and libraries.

Like I said I hope he returns.

Keith
 
thanks everyone for ur help. now im looking for a geared motor with about 50 in-ibs of trouqe that is reversible(backdrivable). any help would be great.
 
We need a little more context. There are several conbinations that will do this, most of which will spin far too fast for your appication. Is there an upper speed you cannot exceed even if the control system goes completely wacko?

Is the 50 lb-in a forward drive limit, a backdrive limit or both? As I said before you may have a hard time getting spicific backdrive torque numbers from suppliers, but it doesn't hurt to ask. Staying in the lower gear ratios will give you a better chance of hitting the number you want but that will also yield the highest peak speed.

I would probably have recommended a small two-stage planetary gearbox from one of several manufacturers if you hadn't already said you had bad luck with servos. Is that bad luck limited to motors/drives or gearing also?

Keith
 
well let me tell you what i need it to do. i need it to rotate a arm(2 to 3 lb) and it doesnt have to be fast. also like i said before i need it to be backdrivable. any help would be great.
 
I said I would not reply again but I have too, the term backdriveable is not the correct term for what he wants. As mentioned the term is used to refer to gearboxes and how far or if they can be pushed opposite of their intended direction.

The problem is I am not sure exactly what he wants either but I have it down to a conclusion, which also may be wrong. I think he has a motion system incorporating a type of robotic arm.

He wants to move an arm, this part I did not get exactly, that will either move 3lb objects or needs 3lbs of torque that may have children pushing it the wrong way. He wants to fix the system where the children can push it backwards all they want and not burn out the servo's.

I am envisioning something similar to those toy crane machines you see in Walmart etc.

I do not think the gearbox will be the issue, use a gearbox that works either direction. What you want to do is eliminate any tension between the drive motor and opposition to the arm, tp prevent backlash or an action that causes the arm to swing harmfully.

The robot and/or motion people can offer more then I but, off the top of my head, one thought is use a system that is capable of more torque, torque or work is relevant to current so may be able to monitor current if exceeds certain range then stop driving it i.e. allow it to be backdriven. Use an absolute encoder to always know position.

Another idea is use some form of load transducer on the arm i.e. if pushed against or meets resistance then act as needed.

The issue in the beginning is you asked a question that had no answer because your terms etc did not fit a known condition. This answer may be all wrong but until you explain what you want to do then it will be difficult to offer answers.
 
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It's been a while since my last post, but I felt like I should step in on this one...

First of all, the mayority of the guys contributing to this forum ARE professionals in their field and frankly deserve some respect. Therefore, I assume most replies are based on misunderstandings or lack of information (on your behalf).

Anyhow...

...With 'servo' I think you are referring to the compact steering modules used on modelling cars, etc. rather than servo motors used on handling equipment or industrial machinery. This would explain why your servos burn, since they are intended to try and reach their setpoint, no matter what obstacle comes along: There's absolutely no torque control whatsoever!

When using the term 'backdriveable' I assume you mean the ability to drive the output shaft of a gearbox, by means of an external force, without damaging the gears or stalling. Personally, I would suggest using straight gears, in stead of using worm/wormgears, unless you can keep the gear ratio below 20:1 (I would even suggest below 10:1).

As a European I'm not that familiar with American units like in.lb, but is it correct to say that:
1Nm (Newton.meter) = 0.736lbft and
1foot = 12inch? If so, 50lb.in equals to approx. 3Nm.

A typical rotation speed for spectators (rather than actual handling capacity) is 1 revolution per 4 seconds or 15rpm (but maybe not for this application?).

THE guideline to calculate power for a given torque at a given speed is:
P = T.n/9565
where P is power in kW, T is torque in Nm and n is in rpm.

When filling in the data, you would come to approx. 5W (mechanical power!) for this application. You must also keep in mind that there's substantial loss in the motor and some in the (straight) gearbox, so you might want to add an extra 25 to 50%.

My guess is that you would prefer DC motors for easier (torque) control & handling. Most DC motors in the smaller power range run at 3000rpm, so try to find a STRAIGHT gearbox with a 200:1 gear ratio. DO NOT try and use motors intended for modelling cars: They have way too much power and run at speeds from 15000 to 30000rpms.

Maybe I was of some assistance... Good luck with your assignment!
 
We may be looking at the wrong technology altogether. May I suggest you look at these:

http://www.motionvillage.com/products/motors/pancake/

or something similar from another supplier. I think this is more in line with what you want to work with. Even if you still use a gearbox you can keep the ratio low, which makes the backdrive torque more manageable.

Ron, student_ucsd is using backdrive the way I have always used backdrive. That doesn't mean I'm right but I understand what he is after. I think the quality you are refering to I have ususally called stiffness or compliance (they are reciprocols of each other). If you lock the input shaft, turn the output until all the backlash is taken up and then keep pushing the measure of additional rotation per unit torque is the compliance. Not to say that's correct; it's just what I have used in the past.

Keith
 
Y'all know I learned backarsewards. I think of backdriven like Dick mentioned, when the load etc is pushing against the driver. It could be something as simple as an incline conveyor with product being able to drive the conveyor backwards. In other words if you "backdrive" you are driving it against its driven direction. A reversing system would not use that term, at least in my experience. In the carnival industry I dealt with gensets, when synchronized one generator could electrically "backdrive" another and make it a motor under wrong conditions.

I am not that familiar with servo systems to have dealt with softness or specific terms used with them.

student_uscd made a post talking about a robot arm that children could push against. The problem with pushing something with low torque is if you keep driving it then the motors may fail; which appears to be what he mentioned in another post.

student_uscd mentioned a CD rom in a post in reference to backdriven. These are reversible devices designed to "sense" when pushed in reverse direction. I guess it is backdriving but I have never heard the term used in that manner, it is designed to reverse if motion is detected in reverse direction.

The issue is what he wants to do.... Is it reverse the action if a child pushes against the "arm" or just prevent it from driving and allow the child to push it?

After he mentioned children being involved I was thinking about forward and backlash i.e. it developing tension where it could "spring" forward or backward. This could cause harm.

I do my best to defend students, hell I are one. These type of questions, without offering details, makes it hard to understand what is being requested.

The idea is to develop a system that uses little torque but be able to withstand any random force applied against it? Even small children may be able to apply 50-100 foot-lbs or opposing force.

I have no idea what they have done so far or what calculations they are attempting to make at this time. It would be easier if he or they could just explain what they are trying to do.
 
You're right, Rsdoran, I should really have explained the senario a little better. First, let me handle a few issues.

First of all, the mayority of the guys contributing to this forum ARE professionals in their field and frankly deserve some respect. Therefore, I assume most replies are based on misunderstandings or lack of information (on your behalf).

I agree, although the post to which you are refering was soley directed at Rsdoran's previous post. If you can not agree that it was slightly Malevolent then I don't know what to say.


...With 'servo' I think you are referring to the compact steering modules used on modelling cars, etc. rather than servo motors used on handling equipment or industrial machinery. This would explain why your servos burn, since they are intended to try and reach their setpoint, no matter what obstacle comes along: There's absolutely no torque control whatsoever!

Initially that was all we understood of servos. We were given a servo similar to one out of an RC car which uses a closed-loop system to achieve a specified input (in degrees.) Now, however, we have a much more broad scope of what servos are and can be. We are currently looking into making our own using a helical gear box, dc motor, and a series of boards for gain and controls.


And thus the application comes out. That should steer the responses some. Is this arm limited in rotation or can it spin indefinitely? It sounds like this will be interacting with people. Do you have maximum force/torque and speed numbers nailed down?

What was the failure mode on the servo? Did you yield the gearbox or did you fry a motor or drive? Or did the arm break because the back drive forces were too high? What gearbox type and reduction were you using? Why are pneumatics not safe enough? Does the axis move too fast or are the forces not controllable enough? Is this assessment based on a design iteration or is it based on a design review? What have you tried with pneumatics?

The project is simple in nature, we are to construct an arm for the robot called RUBI, currently used at UCSD's Early Childhood Education Center and developed at UCSD's Machine Perception Laboratory. An article on RUBI can be found here.
The details concerning RUBI are not a big factor, but the arm must be very specific.

The first attempt at an arm used 7 of the before mentioned "RC Servors" although they were a higher end device. We do not no for certain what part burnt out, whether it was the gearing or an electrical failure, but we do know why they failed. After only 2 days of interaction with the children, all 7 of the servos failed simply because they were not meant to be back driven.

The arm we have been assigned to create will only have 3 degrees of freedom: A 1 DoF pivoting shoulder, a rotating forearm (180 degrees of rotation), and an expanding/contracting hand. What we are focusing on is sole the shoulder and what type of actuator to use for this component. The shoulder only needs to rotate about 90 degrees, and it does not have to do so very quickly. There are no design constraints at this point in regards to velocity or torque, it is all up to us. The goals of the arm are as follows:
1. Lifelike compliance - We would like the arm movements to simulate a real person. The action we would like to simulate can be imagined by swinging your arms back and forth as if you were power walking, although not nearly as fast, simulating a sort of 'dance.'
2. Robustness - The arm needs to survive. The goal is 100 hours of use without breaking. As I mentioned, the servos on the last arm were destroyed in 2 days flat. This is where our professor began to use the term "back drivable." He would like us to use some sort of servo system that, when traveling one direction, can be pushed backwards without causing harm to the motor or gearbox. He was not specific at all in what back drivable meant, and that is where the issue began.
3. Safety - The arm has to be safe. The children it interacts with are between 18-24 months old. We have to assume the worst: Pinching, falling, grabbing, pulling. Anything that can happen will happen around children. So far we are only considering that kids will be often grabbing and yanking on the arm, or accidentally falling on it. When this happens, one option is to simply have the arm give (i.e. be back driven.)

As far as pneumatics go, so far we have developed a 1 DoF simulation of the shoulder powered by a Vex Robotics pneumatic system. The main problem with this pneumatic is that the piston diameter is so small that the volume of air in the cylinder is easily compressed, and thus creates a large 'pop' when released. This action is dangerous to say the least. I believe that we can counter this by using a larger diameter cylinder, thus allowing less of the piston's stroke to be manually compressed, and limiting this pop. My professor on the other hand thinks pneumatics are not the way to go and suggest we research back drivable systems. Too bad no one knows what they are :)

I probably left alot out so if you have any more questions that would help you in helping us, feel free to ask. I will try to check this board alot more often now. Sorry for the attitude previously, it was just very frustrating when we were saying all we knew and still getting nothing. Thanks!
 

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