Control Tank Measurement From 1 Of 3 Valves

AshleyParr

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Join Date
Dec 2008
Location
Midlands, UK
Posts
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Evening All,

Hoping for some advice & any suggestions on a tank control system that we will be looking to optimise soon.

We have a tank that we would like to control to 500mS, we have 3 water supplies (each with different strengths) to this tank each with a valve that will open/close when required.

Supply 1 lets say is 80mS, Supply 2 lets say is 400mS, Supply 3 lets say is 2000mS.

We want to acheive around 500mS, so this will ideally be a blend of the 3. However i keep going around in circles about the best way to code this. Set a PID up with output of 1,2,3 then relate that to the valves, use limits then dose water for time periods.

As i said open to any suggestions & willing to learn :)

Cheers,
Ash
 
Apparently this is an example of Brits and Americans divided by a common language.

I understand the abbreviation "mS" to mean milliseconds and "tank" to mean a vessel containing a fluid. Thus I don't understand "tank control system" in terms of those units.
 
Apparently this is an example of Brits and Americans divided by a common language.

I understand the abbreviation "mS" to mean milliseconds and "tank" to mean a vessel containing a fluid. Thus I don't understand "tank control system" in terms of those units.

British, so maybe it's meters cubed? cubic meters per second?
 
Ahhhh. Sorry. It’s more a case of me knowing what I’m talking about but not telling anyone else :D

mS = millisiemens in this case

We are looking to control the conductivity of the water in the tank
 
1) What is mS? is it some kind of concentration metric? (never mind; this was answered)

2) What is the time constant of the tank i.e. the range of volumes of fluid in the tank divided by the range expected outflows from the tank?

3) Are the three supplies expected to

3.1) BOTH maintain the tank effluent measurement (500mS),
3.2) AND maintain a level of water in the tank?

4) How fo the mS units blend together? is it linear based on volume or mass weighting (e.g. mixing 1m**3 of 80mS supply and 3m**3 of 2000mS supply will result in 4m**3 of water at 1520mS), or is it non-linear e.g. like pH?
 
Last edited:
Are you taking anything from the tank while you are trying to correct the conductivity? Do you know the volume or weight of the conductive fluid in the tank? Do you know the flow rates of the influents? Is there adequate mixing of the added material?

I participated in controlling conductivity in a few systems over the course of my career. All were batch processes. When the conductivity got out of the acceptable range we had an algorithm to calculate the the proper amount of correction. I was never faced with a system that required constant correction as would be provided by a PID loop.
 
5) Thank you @Steve. What he asked: mixing; batch vs. continuous?

6) How well versed are you in the chemistry involved? Are you a chemical engineer? Do you know what I mean by linear blending?
 
thanks for the response's so far. Hopefully i can answer them all for you:

A little more of a system description for you all (should have started with this):
We have a refrigeration plant that manages our sites cooling load, it has 2 cooling towers. These towers are supplied with water, the towers recirculate water but once the water hits a conductivity of around 4,000mS it dumps the water down the drain. We started to encounter issues with the cooling towers being starved of water elsewhere, so we installed a smaller buffer tank to mitigate any issues. We also back this up by supplying the buffer tank with 2 other water sources, so if the water from source 3 fails, source 1 or 2 can keep the plant running. As this equipment is in place i want to try to optimise the water consumption associated with the cooling towers, working from the numbers:
Supply 1 lets say is 80mS, this could be used 50 times before being dumped
Supply 2 lets say is 400mS, this could be used 10 times before being dumped
Supply 3 lets say is 2000mS, this could be used 2 times before being dumped

It screams out on paper to use supply 1, however this is RO water which is probably the most expensive water we have on site. So i was looking to blend the water to balance consumption & cost.


2) What is the time constant of the tank i.e. the range of volumes of fluid in the tank divided by the range expected outflows from the tank?
The tank is a small buffer tank for the cooling towers associated with our refrigeration plant, the tank will trigger the filling sequence when it gets to around 1.2m3 then stop filling when it reaches 2.7m3. On average the tank supplies the cooling towers at 1-2 m3/hr


3) Are the three supplies expected to
3.1) BOTH maintain the tank effluent measurement (500mS),
3.2) AND maintain a level of water in the tank?
Yes the filling phase will control the level, already does this using one water supply (high conductivity). The idea of using the 3 different water supply is to balance the water usage against the cost. Using more of the low conductivity water would consume less water but it is more expensive to produce.


4) How fo the mS units blend together? is it linear based on volume or mass weighting (e.g. mixing 1m**3 of 80mS supply and 3m**3 of 2000mS supply will result in 4m**3 of water at 1520mS), or is it non-linear e.g. like pH?
I'm not 100%, i haven't tried mixing this before but i would assume it would work like this.


5) Thank you @Steve. What he asked: mixing; batch vs. continuous?
A hybrid, combination of both :D The tank will continually be filled & emptied, however once the tank has been filled it takes roughly an hour before it starts to refill.


6) How well versed are you in the chemistry involved? Are you a chemical engineer? Do you know what I mean by linear blending?
No I'm not & no i don't. I know the conductivity of the waters but that's about it.


No doubt that this is a homework problem.
Nope, unfortunately not. Just someone looking for different idea on writing code. I could keep plodding along with my own way of writing software but everyone has different ideas & ways of working. Always looking to improve


Conductivity is measured in S/m
Apologies on any confusion caused, Just a copy from googleWhat measurement is millisiemens? A millisiemens per centimeter (mS/cm) is a decimal fraction of the SI unit of electrical conductivity siemens per meter. 1 mS/cm = 0.1 S/m.

Thankyou for responses & questions

Ash
 
Interesting... we don't drain our cooling towers. We have a softener for refill and a pH control system that keeps the water in check all year around other than the hottest days of Summer where the softener isn't man enough to do it.
 
Those. the task is to fill a small buffer tank every 0.75-1.5 hours from a volume of 1.2 m3 to 2.7 m3 with a final conductivity of 500 mS?

How is it works now?
 
This is a mix of continuous and batch processes.

The batch process is refilling the tank.

The continuous process is loss of water in the cooling tower by evaporation. The issue is that literally ideally only water evaporates to become vapor, which vapor exits the process through the top of the tower, motivated by the fan, while the solids that were dissolved in the evaporated water do not evaporate (sublimate, much) and instead end up in the remaining cooled un-evaporated water. That cooled water cycles back and forth between the refrigeration process, picking up heat to start the process over again.

In the meantime, fresh water is added to the process to replace the water that evaporated; I think this is where the buffer tank comes in. The fresh water has dissolved solids, and even though those solids are at a lower concentration than the water evaporation, there is no place for those solids (yet) to go once they get to the heating/cooling circuit. The volume of water in the circuit is more or less constant, as any volume lost through evaporation is made up. Since the total amount of solids in the circuit increases over time while the volume is constant, the concentration would increase. The only way to deal with this is to remove some of the water (called blowdown in the steam turbine process), which as noted has a higher solids concentration, from the circuit. Since this will be made up by adding an equal volume of fresh water with a lower solids concentration, the blowdown itself represents a loss of solids in the system, which will eventually exactly match the gain of solids from the fresh water replacing volume lost both from evaporation and from blowdown.

Conductance is used as proxy for the dissolved solids concentration, specifically for dissolved ions concentration, a.k.a. salinity.

It's not clear if

  • EITHER the buffer tank is part of that cycle,
    • i.e. if the water cycles from the refrigeration unit, to the cooling tower, to the buffer tank, then back to refrigeration, etc.,
  • OR resupplying makeup water from the buffer tank to the refrigeration/tower circuit is configured as an external makeup.
    • i.e. the water cycles from the refrigeration unit, to the cooling tower, then back to refrigeration, etc.,
    • while the buffer tank supplies water, perhaps to maintain level in a sump at the bottom of the cooling tower to prevent pumps from being starved.
Either way, I don't think it changes the math, which boils (;)) down to two material balances:

  • net water volume accumulation = in - out = makeup - (evaporation + blowdown)
    • evaporation is the liquid volume lost to evaporative cooling
  • net solids accumulation = in - out = (makeup * ECmakeup) - (blowdown * ECblowdown)
    • EC is Electrical Conductance (the siemens measurement), assumed to be a proxy for dissolved solids i.e. EC=0 when dissolved solids are absent, and EC value is linear with the concentration of solids.
    • N.B. this assumes there is no loss from evaporation or sublimation, but there could be some from entrained water droplets.
Both accumulations will be 0 for continuous operation; ECmakeup is known (not really, but more later), evaporation is known, ECblowdown has a maximum spec and so is more or less known. That leaves two unknowns: makeup volume and blowdown volume.

That is two equations with two independent quantities, makeup and blowdown, which can be solved simply via substitution:

  1. blowdown = evaporation * ECmakeup) / (ECblowdown- ECmakeup)
  2. makeup = evaporation + blowdown
Sanity checks:

  • Using makeup water with a lower ECmakeup decreases the numerator and increases the denominator in equation 1, so it decreases blowdown, which decreases makeup in equation 2,
  • and vice versa.
Also note that increasing the ECblowdown target spec increases the denominator in equation 1, which in turn decreases blowdown and makeup, but may also have long-term maintenance costs because the concentration of solids in the circulating system is higher.

That's the easy part; optimizing ECmakeup to minimize operating cost based on the cost of various blends of the three water types is the interesting part. It's mostly bookkeeping (volume and mass balance, analogous to the equations above, plus a cost function that is also linear) as blending ECs is linear and costs are linear, so there should be a straightforward path to the solution.

As a start, it should be easy to calculate estimated relative costs for using each of the three water types alone, then introduce a few percent of the other types into each of those and see if the costs go up or down. Since this problem is mostly linear or at least monotonic (that denominator is a burr under the saddle), I suspect that using only one water type will be the optimum choice. But if any of the costs go down when blending, then increase the introduced blends and try again i.e. follow steepest descent.

This is also a small enough problem that simple brute force modeling of all possible blends in 1% or 10% increments is manageable. It could even be done in eXcel (and I can't believe I am suggesting that ;)).
 

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