Difference between suppliers' Tech Support and here

[504bloke]

Support here rocks

Of the Manufacturer Support i have encountered this year to date

Manufacturer/s vs Plc.net

Plc's.net Wins hands down

 

[Peter Nachtwey]

How many of you have communicated in any way with the technical head of the Rockwell motion group?

What would you ask? How to calculate 5th order polynomial ramps?

Peter also made an interesting distinction between technical support and application support. Are we asking for too much from what we are calling 'technical support'?

I think most ask for much more than tech support. How many questions on the forum are really PLC or tech support questions? I bet more than half are application related.

Are we asking them to develop our application for us?

Not all, but I have seen some pretty flagrant cases. I have seen customers extort application support saying they will switch to another supplier even though the other supplier could not even supply the support required.

Is that what the service was intended to do?

That depends on supplier’s business plan. We do to a point but we quickly get to the point where we recommend an integrator or an expert in hydraulic design.

I think we tend to expect application support from our technical support calls, but should we?

No. How is the poor tech support guy going to know your application and every other application on which an application can be applied?

There are many threads on this forum where I have no idea what the people are talking about until the are a few posts explaining the problem. There is equipment referenced that I have never heard of. I am not familiar with the terms that every industry uses. How is a tech person to know?

Tech support questions should be limited to why the PLC doesn't work. For instance, a customer should not call tech support because an output does not turn on or off at the right time. As long as the output can go on or off the timing is a programming issue. It is not tech supports responsibility to debug the customers program. What I see all too often is the customer will blame the output anyway saying it is a hardware problem or there is some wrong with the firmware.

One of my 'favorite' problems is that the actuator does not move fast enough. I don't see why we get ANY calls about these problems. It is easy to set the output to the valve or drive is 10 volts and measure it with a multimeter. Isn't this obvious? Does the customer really expect motion controller to output 18 volts and make the system go faster? I have had customers tell me that brand x's motion controller makes the system go faster and accelerate faster than ours. Give me a break. The motion controllers just output +/- 10 volts. It is the size of the hydraulic or drives that determine the maximum speed and acceleration. I had to output a 10 volt step and graph the response. One could see from the graph that the actuator wouldn't move as fast as they claimed the other controller could make the actuator go or accelerate as quickly. What was really needed was application help on how to design the hydraulic system to go faster and accelerate faster. As it turns out brand x is a well know electric servo motor controller but they don't know what we do about hydraulic design. The customer was applying to screws to us. I have seen them do it to others too like Rockwell and Siemens. Customers can be manipulative.

As Peter pointed out the informal format of this forum probably won't get you a pinpoint answer in the shortest period of time.

I disagree. If enough information is provided so we can answer the question the response is very quick. It is slow when we have to play 20 questions.

However, the answers given here will be of more long-term help than the answers from most technical support calls.

Possibly, but I doubt it. Information gets lost on this forum. The one button toggle is an example.

You will get more of an explanation of the how and why of a solution than you do on normal tech support calls.
Keith

yes. The tech support guy has another person waiting on the line that expects to have the manual read to him.



If have got stories. Lots of stories.

 

[Rick Densing]

Does the customer really expect motion controller to output 18 volts and make the system go faster?

Here is your answer for them.


With the member base here, it is likely that someone has seen a problem before, or done a similar application. Especially with such a diverse member base. For example, I don't answer elevator questions.

 

[Tom Jenkins]

Peter hit on the real problem with tech support (which I also provide): getting the customer to have the right information and ask the right questions.

It is impossible to answer the "It doesn't work, what's wrong?" kind of questions. Because of laziness, inadequate understaning of the fundamentals, and the inability to prperly observe symptoms I get a lot of questions in that category. I have often said that 80% of getting the right answer is asking the right question. It takes work and an understanding of fundamental principles for the customer to have the right data available. It takes work to sift through the data and obtain information from it. It is totally unreasonable for a customer to ask a man looking at his office wall to know more about a problem than they do when they are staring right at it. The customer has to do his homework first.

 

[kamenges]

Originally posted by Peter Nachtwey:

What would you ask? How to calculate 5th order polynomial ramps?

You're a funny man, Peter. Quite the comedian. One of these days I will... ah, forget it.

In reality, the only names I have seen on any forum that I can tie to the motion world are Peter and Curt Wilson. The only guys in the upper level of plc development that I have seen are Stephen Luft and Mike Granby.

Peter made the comment earlier that one of the ways Delta views customer support is as a marketing tool. To a certain degree I think this is preaching to the choir. People calling tech support are already using your product. You have a somewhat captive audience. I think that a forum like this is a much better marketing environment. Before i started visiting this forum I wouldn't have given Delta the time of day. Now I wouldn't go into any high performance motion application without giving Delta very serious consideration. All because Peter takes the time to visit and answer questions. I can say the same for Mike and Stephen (I've used Curt's stuff before).

Whether these guys use forums for exposure or its a consequence the fact is that they are getting their names in front of people and (most importantly to the rest of us) helping people in the process. I am often surprised that other manufacturers don't at least visit once in a while. A quick visit can very quickly produce serious good will and doesn't take much time to do.

The biggest reason I vistit the forunm is I have more application side questions than technical questions. Those are the questions I think this forum excels at.

Keith

 

[jtn]

Peter made the comment earlier that one of the ways Delta views customer support is as a marketing tool. To a certain degree I think this is preaching to the choir. People calling tech support are already using your product.Keith

True they are already using your product, but good tech support will get you long term customers.

I haven't been monitoring this website long, I stumbled on it when doing a google search when looking for a device a little while back. That is where I see power of this website - if you are tasked with designing something that you haven't done before you can ask here and get tips at what has worked with the tips covering a wide range of approaches and components.

I agree with the statement that a lot of people want the PLC tech support guy to tell them why their transmitter isn't working correctly - that's not their problem and they don't know, if a 4-20mA signal generator makes your PLC see an input then their job is done. On this site though, people can give a bit of a tutorial on signal wiring, or maybe someone has actually made that transmitter talk to that PLC and is willing to help. When asking for help though you have to remember that everyone has their own style and set of circumstances, so you have to decide for yourself whether their solution to a problem is the best solution for you for the same problem.

 

[Stephen Luft]

First off, let me thank Keith for his comments.

Now, to the matter at hand.

For one of our customer's to post a "tech support" question related to our products on this forum or any forum, I would constitute as a failure on our part. If a customer is looking for an answer to a question related to our product, who better to answer it than the manufacturer.

This is not saying that there aren't many knowledgeable, capable and experienced people who make up this community, but when you have to go elsewhere for a question to be answered, then the manufacturer is not doing their job properly.

There is a difference between "Tech Support" and "Application Support" however, how can you prevent one and allow the other? My view on what support is for Entertron, is a combination of both. Yes you will have "how to" questions related to programming, but you will also have application specific questions. Being able to not only answer your product related questions, but also, application related questions establishes a relationship with the customer in knowing their application first hand. It is not uncommon for us to create programming examples, specific to what the customer is asking for.

We actually earned a new customer's business through our support. This goes back two years. A then potential customer was looking for a PLC product line for integration. We were discussing one application in detail and mentioned that he was looking for a certain type of component. We took his requirements and sourced a few options for him. He decided to work with us, because, he found it unique that a manufacturer would take the time and source other components.

In that we offer programming services for OEM applications, it only makes sense that we will know our customer's application and therefore be able to address issues related to their application specifically.

We also get the "controller doesn't work" questions...and yes we have to spend time getting to the heart of the matter. More often than not, it isn't the controller, but something else in their panel that is interfaced to the controller. There are other times when the issue is programming related. This is where the technical support people earn their money...being able to identify the problem, and then provide a resolution for the customer.

To plug my tech...he is excellent at what he does. Much of his knowledge, he learned on the job. His degree was from ITT tech. The time he spent working with a PLC at school, was minimal. It was his ability to learn and understand our product and programming that makes him a valuable asset, for whom many of our customers rely on.

Other reasons why tech questions will be posed to the forum include:

• Accessibility to tech support is terrible. - Typically, you call, get voice mail and someone eventually calls you back.
• Cost of tech support. - Believe it or not, there are companies that charge for tech support (or different levels of tech support), even though you have purchased their products.
• Quality of tech support. - You may not always get your questions answered in a manner that actually solves your problem. - Some larger companies actually outsource their technical support and the information is based on the manuals or limited training or they rely on their distribution network for support. They (distribution) will only be as good as the training they receive from the manufacturer.

Therefore, I can see why many questions are asked of the larger "name brand" products.

To summarize...if the manufacturer is doing their job in supporting their products, then you would see fewer questions posted on line. It is unfortunate that many companies see tech support as a cost separate from the product and not part of the product. It is also unfortunate that some companies want to create an additional profit center from support. Not only are you buying the product, but you also have to buy the support for the product. (please note that I am not referring to extended warranties, but rather standard support.)

I may sign my pay check, but it is my customers who provide the funds so that it doesn't bounce.

One thing that has stuck with me from a marketing seminar a couple years back, was that in order to get something of value (a new customer, a sale, etc...) you have to give something of value away. I wasn't actually planning on using a scripture reference (for which there are several)in this post, but it reminds me of the following:

"Therefore, all things whatsoever you would that men should to do you, do so, even to them: for this is the law and the prophets. Matthew 7:12

My opinion on manufacturer support in general and in relation to this web site.

God Bless,

 

[MikeGranby]

Tech Support for us is a key differentiator -- or at least we want it to be. In the end, only our customers can be the judge of whether we're succeeding, but we certainly have that as our intent.

My philosophy is that companies like Red Lion who develop and make their products here in the United States have to offset their greater costs with greater benefits to the customer. To explain: Most of our panel meter competitors and virtually all our HMI competitors source their products from partners in Asia-Pacific, and have given up on the USA except as a target market. We are different. We design and build here in Pennsylvania, and so we have the ability to provide better support because our support engineers can get more-or-less immediate access to our development teams. But, we do incur higher costs by not joining the rush off-shore. And if we are to recover those costs, we have to drive sales growth by playing to our strengths. Solid tech support must be a plank of our strategy, then, and not just something which we see as a non-value-added overhead.

As to managing support, good people are obviously the key, and keeping good people in those roles can be difficult. To be a truly excellent support guy, you need a combination of technical and people skills that can often lead to greater things. Add-in solid problem solving abilities, and you've typically got an individual who will be destined for "promotion" out of support and into other roles. Keeping these people in support by rewarding them properly and ensuring their job satisfaction is therefore essential. We try to do it, but again you'd ask to have our staff whether we're succeeding. One key element, I think, is the integration with the development teams that I discussed above. A support engineer who has actual input on product direction and who can access the team to get his customers' issues addresses is less likely to get frustrated, and more likely to enjoy his job. Provide the support for those who support, and they'll provide support better!!!

 

[rsdoran]

I can not offer much on this topic

BUT, my deepest thanks are to the manufacturers, and reps, that visit this site. The information and insight is awesome.

Thank you:
Mike Granby
Stephen Luft
Ken Roach
RussB
mgvol
icky and Andy
Ron B

The list goes on and on,,,thank you.

 

[504bloke]

Tech Support for us is a key differentiator -- or at least we want it to be. In the end, only our customers can be the judge of whether we're succeeding, but we certainly have that as our intent.

My philosophy is that companies like Red Lion who develop and make their products here in the United States have to offset their greater costs with greater benefits to the customer. To explain: Most of our panel meter competitors and virtually all our HMI competitors source their products from partners in Asia-Pacific, and have given up on the USA except as a target market. We are different. We design and build here in Pennsylvania, and so we have the ability to provide better support because our support engineers can get more-or-less immediate access to our development teams. But, we do incur higher costs by not joining the rush off-shore. And if we are to recover those costs, we have to drive sales growth by playing to our strengths. Solid tech support must be a plank of our strategy, then, and not just something which we see as a non-value-added overhead.

As to managing support, good people are obviously the key, and keeping good people in those roles can be difficult. To be a truly excellent support guy, you need a combination of technical and people skills that can often lead to greater things. Add-in solid problem solving abilities, and you've typically got an individual who will be destined for "promotion" out of support and into other roles. Keeping these people in support by rewarding them properly and ensuring their job satisfaction is therefore essential. We try to do it, but again you'd ask to have our staff whether we're succeeding. One key element, I think, is the integration with the development teams that I discussed above. A support engineer who has actual input on product direction and who can access the team to get his customers' issues addresses is less likely to get frustrated, and more likely to enjoy his job. Provide the support for those who support, and they'll provide support better!!!

Hi Mike

I have encountered your support on email from DanY

It has been one of the best supports (albeit email) that i have had this year to date from any major supplier.

Have you thought of having a RedLion Forum Support Board ?

Shame Rockwell shut theres!

And going on from RSDorans thanks to all the manufacturers and reps........

I Agree

Also thanks to all the Experts in various fields that post here and make comments and suggestions to many many problems.

 

[Stephen Luft]

Keith,

Peter made the comment earlier that one of the ways Delta views customer support is as a marketing tool. To a certain degree I think this is preaching to the choir. People calling tech support are already using your product. You have a somewhat captive audience.

I can see Peter's thinking behind this statement. Tech support isn't always used by current customers. A truly savy person who is looking for information about a product will bypass the sales department, and ask their questions to tech support for the simple reason that most sales departments provide little if any technical information other than what is provided in the literature.

We have potential customers call and ask for tech support simply because they think most sales departments are lacking in the knowledge required in answering their questions. Our Tech support will also handle the sales end with the exception of quantity pricing. Likewise, sales can handle the majority of technical questions associated with the products we manufacturer and support.

As Mike mentioned, it all comes down to the people you hire.

 

[icky812]

Thank you so much Ron.



I have to say that I started here way before I even considered working for a manufacturer. That's one reason my handle is so...unique. I've never created a separate account to change it to. I try hard to give accurate information, but sometimes I fail be it my fault or due to circumstances beyond my control. If for some reason I do fail, I try to find out why and do my best not to let it happen again. Sometimes this means changing documentation, sometimes it means honing my knowledge on a product line. Like my pop used to say, "Son if it's broke, you ought to see about fixing it."



<humble mode on>



I hold many of this forums members in high regard including you Ron. Many of you have unknowingly mentored me through a lot of problems and helped me learn many techniques that I otherwise would have never known.



So suffice it to say, "Thanks" to each and every one of you who has ever posted and provided input to a problem.



<humble mode off>

 

[jtn]

We have potential customers call and ask for tech support simply because they think most sales departments are lacking in the knowledge required in answering their questions.

You're on to me! If I'm trying to do something odd or talk to a strange piece of equipment I don't salesmen - I talk to tech support and see what kind of reaction I get. A couple of silent moments on the other end of the phone while the guy thinks WTF and I know I should keep looking for a solution.