Dirty Jobs' Mike Rowe on the high cost of college

[Peter Nachtwey]

strantor, I think it is great that you started programming in 10th grade. Obviously you found VB too easy to gain your respect for what real programming is all about. In the end it is all about organization and algorithms.
You may make more than a rookie engineer but the good one will pass you up in the long run.

There is so much to know and the more you know the more you know you don't know.

Don't stop learning.

Not all programmers are created equal. The really goods ones are 5 to 10 times better than the average programmer. This probably goes for PLC programming too.

 

[Doug-P]

ken_robinson_says_schools_kill_creativity


ken_robinson_how_to_escape_education_s_death_valley

Great stuff! The biggest impact on me from those two presentations was the story of the little girl whose life was dance. The 'system' is set up cookie cutter fashion, and they're round cookies! Woe to the square cookies. It's great that the counselor discovered the problem and that Mom took the step of moving her daughter to a dance school.

John Gatto is also an eloquent critic of modern education.

http://johntaylorgatto.com/

 

[FactoryTalktotheHand]

Didn't watch the video, but there are degrees that provide a good ROI for the money. Engineering, Medical, Law, etc. The problem is, these are the difficult degrees nobody wants to do. So we end up with the current situation: industries desperate for engineers while thousands of college grads sit unemployed because they decided to major in Photography or English Literature. They majored in those degrees because (A) they were easy, and (B) they were sent to college by their parents, many of whom are still under the impression that it was like how things used to be and simply having a Bachelor's degree in anything could get you just about any job. And it only used to be like that because most people at that time didn't go to college and having a degree meant you were generally well-educated in a variety of subjects and were better and quicker and learning whatever job you got.

Now, the only way college makes sense is if you treat it like a trade school.

That said, I read somewhere that there are about 3 million job openings in the States for the 12 million people looking for work (not counting the people who stopped looking). And I think our profession is partially at fault for this. I mean, think about how many jobs our programming eliminated over the years, enabling industry to make more with less...everything; people, materials, etc. It's pretty staggering to think about and makes me feel a bit guilty. Obviously not every program we write eliminates jobs. I think what we do is important because it also enables people to do things they'd never have been able to do before. But then again, before the PLC was invented, armies of electricians had to re-wire electrical panels every time a big design change at GM happened. That job is no longer necessary now, and over the years more and more jobs have ceased being necessary yet we still have the same number of people willing to work. It makes me wonder what the future will look like when just about everything is automated and there will literally be almost nothing for anybody to do. It seems like we might have to eventually abandon the idea of "working for a living" because when the machines do most of the work for us and all of life's necessities can be obtained for next to nothing, what is there left to do?

 

[Steve Bailey]

Let's not overlook the fact that the HR departments of many corporations want at least an Associates degree regardless of the job duties. People feel like they have to jump into the college degree rat race because of the realities of the marketplace.

 

[RussB]

Let's not overlook the fact that the HR departments of many corporations want at least an Associates degree regardless of the job duties. People feel like they have to jump into the college degree rat race because of the realities of the marketplace.

That could be a whole other thread. The "Millenniums" in the modern day work force. Especially those in HR, Accounting and other Administrative positions. They are changing the way business is done, and not in a good way.

I agree with those who have discoverd that higher education is over-rated today. I am still working on my thesis theory that says "In most people education and common sense is inversely proportionate." I see growing proof of this every day in the political news arena.

 

[strantor]

Let's not overlook the fact that the HR departments of many corporations want at least an Associates degree regardless of the job duties. People feel like they have to jump into the college degree rat race because of the realities of the marketplace.

That's a good point, and it ties in with post before it. Automation affects desk jobs too. Most companies now have an online job application process, complete with an HR bot that automatically file 13's all applications that don't satisfy the unrealistic criteria (a degree) before a human even gets to see it.

 

[Paullys50]

And I think our profession is partially at fault for this. I mean, think about how many jobs our programming eliminated over the years, enabling industry to make more with less...everything; people, materials, etc. It's pretty staggering to think about and makes me feel a bit guilty.

I disagree with this perspective. At the end of the day, manufacturing in the US will only compete with overseas equivalent by using automation. Labor costs are too high in the States because everyone thinks they are owed something. $15/hr for fast food people...yeah I don't think so. Cut labor costs, improve efficiency and keep on the technical cutting edge. It's the only way to keep these types of jobs in the states. Yes it results in people losing their jobs at times, but better some than all.

So, my perspective is that I am helping to keep jobs here, and I hope it helps people to realize that eduction is important, and finding a job is more than doing what your father did for 30 years at GM. That ship as sailed and people today need to realize that they/we (the USA in general) need to be better if we want to keep our high standard of living. It also means that our jobs should be pushing people to better themselves, and as a collective whole better our country. If that means tech school, college...etc then so be it. Regardless, people need eduction to ensure they know how to LEARN. If college can teach you anything, it has to teach you how to LEARN. That is a fundamental life-lesson of higher eduction.

 

[Wilso]

Will encourage my kids into medicine, law, physiotherapy, optometry, veterinary science. Basically, anything that can make money outside of trades and engineering. 6-year-old daughter already wants to be a vet. Hope that ambition stays with her - or she marries a rich guy.

 

[geniusintraining]

I disagree with this perspective. At the end of the day, manufacturing in the US will only compete with overseas equivalent by using automation. Labor costs are too high in the States because everyone thinks they are owed something. $15/hr for fast food people...yeah I don't think so. Cut labor costs, improve efficiency and keep on the technical cutting edge...

Not sure if we want to take this topic in this direction... but, its not that the US is high, when compared to the rest of the markets we are on the lower side of the list (13th and the list is not complete) it maybe more dead weight we have to carry http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minimum_wages_by_country

The new report came out and the USA kids are falling further and further behind the world in education and this is just basic school

There are a few big issues with the US as I see it... until they are fixed we will continue on the downward trend we are heading

 

[rexcramer]

Let's not overlook the fact that the HR departments of many corporations want at least an Associates degree regardless of the job duties. People feel like they have to jump into the college degree rat race because of the realities of the marketplace.

I think an Associates degree is very useful and will pay for itself in a short amount of time. My Associates from a community college cost me 15k or so. It paid for itself the first year, and now I make double what I did two years ago, so I believe in them strongly. It proves to a company that a person can at least read, write, send a legible email, and use a computer. It also proves that a potential employee can finish a long term goal once it is started, something more than half of today's kids can't do. I believe almost everyone can benefit from an Associates, but the cost of a Bachelors more than quadruples and is often a waste.

 

[Johnster]

Let's not overlook the fact that the HR departments of many corporations want at least an Associates degree regardless of the job duties. People feel like they have to jump into the college degree rat race because of the realities of the marketplace.

Funny anecdote - I have a BS in Mechanical Engineering Technology. When I was talking to the hiring manager, he told me 'You need to fill out the online application process, and when it asks you if you have an Electrical Engineering degree (it was for a DCS/controls job) just lie and check yes - if you dont, I'll never get you application'

I should have given that more thought: "I havent even been hired yet and they are asking me to lie" but for the last 5 yeas, the company has been good to me, has a great emphasis on safety and I can't find any institutional ethical issues that wouldn't be present in a different firm in the same business (large electric/gas utilities)

-John the fibber

 

[Tom Jenkins]

Daddy always told me "Get an education - they can't take that away from you." I was taught early to value formal education, and I still do. A lot of diploma bashing has shown up in this thread, and I think much of it is unjustified.

That isn't to say that a college degree is the path to nirvana. And that isn't to say that a "profession" is better or more useful than the "trades". I worked with my hands for my entire career, building and installing the things I designed. I take a lot of pride in that.

However, an education is more than a trade school. Knowledge, and a well rounded education, are valuable for their own sake. Money isn't the only thing in life that counts, after all.

I'll admit that the currency has been cheapened by diploma mills and students in school just to shut up the folks. I'll also agree that a lot of HR twits don't know the difference between ability and credentials. Nonetheless, lifelong education is in everyone's best interest, whether that's through formal education, experience, or independent study. They are all good.

 

[Steve Bailey]

@Johnster,

Some day in the future, when the directive comes down from on high to reduce staffing levels, they can invite you into the boss' office and tell you they've just discovered that you lied on your employment application and fire you for it.

I expect that if I created a PLC/HMI system for a client in which the operator had to "lie" on an HMI entry to get the machine to work properly I wouldn't get paid until I corrected it. Why aren't the people who automate the back office operations held to the same standards as the people who automate the shop floor operations?

 

[strantor]

I expect that if I created a PLC/HMI system for a client in which the operator had to "lie" on an HMI entry to get the machine to work properly I wouldn't get paid until I corrected it. Why aren't the people who automate the back office operations held to the same standards as the people who automate the shop floor operations?

I don't think that the people who automate the back office operations are the same people entering the job criteria.

 

[rexcramer]

Funny anecdote - I have a BS in Mechanical Engineering Technology. When I was talking to the hiring manager, he told me 'You need to fill out the online application process, and when it asks you if you have an Electrical Engineering degree (it was for a DCS/controls job) just lie and check yes - if you dont, I'll never get you application'

I should have given that more thought: "I havent even been hired yet and they are asking me to lie" but for the last 5 yeas, the company has been good to me, has a great emphasis on safety and I can't find any institutional ethical issues that wouldn't be present in a different firm in the same business (large electric/gas utilities)

-John the fibber

Same here I applied for my current position and was disqualified by the HR "auto sorter" because I didn't have 3 years of chemical plant experience, I had 1.5 years. So telling the truth go me kicked out of the hiring process. I knew I was qualified to do the job and was punished by HR for some stupid requirement. The guy that hired me remembered me from an interview a year earlier, called me while I was on vacation, and pushed me through the interview process and I got the job anyways. Because some HR idiot didn't even look at my skills my resume wasn't forwarded to the hiring manager.

When you need a job (like everyone these days) you have to do whatever you have to do to get past the stupid screening process and get that face to face interview and show your stuff. The current system at almost all big companies penalizes those that tell the truth.