Flowmeter for "WATER" and "EGG"

[John Soltesz]

Actually the E +H massflow uses a more straight tube with a kind of bow and not the typical S tube.

Promass S
Single-tube hygienic sensor for the food industry, DN 8...50 (3/8...2")
Standard approvals: 3A, EHEDG, FDA and SIL2
Tube material: Stainless steel

 

[leitmotif]

What type of egg? Whole, yolks only or whites only. We have an application where we have to measure all three types. Due to the differnce in densities and conductivities, mag flow would not be suitable, so we had to use E&H Massflows.

Expensive, but works.

I suppose there is a standard for X weight of (yolks, whites or whole per Y volume. Or do you calibrate using a sample out of a batch or just the "standard" ? sizing methods?

Oh man the puns that have popped into my mind. Oh well the yolk is on me.
Uhhh do I dare start an argument over the chicken and egg??
Dan Bentler

 

[automation2k]

dosing 'Whole Egg & Egg powder solution'

do anything you want just don't look at the thread starting date!!

I'm not starting a new thread since its the same project that was initiated few years ago.

Just visited the Biscuit manufacturing facility yesterday.
Here's a bit of detail of what they want to be done.

They will provide us two tank filled with ingredients, one with Whole egg the other with Egg powder+water solution.

We will just pump both the whole lot to a single 'Agitator SILO'(which keeps stirring it slowly)
when needed we will will supply this mixture (whole egg + egg powder Sol.), to three final Mixers, say MIXER-1 with capacity 'X' and MIXER-2 and MIXER-3 with capacity 'Y'.

All other ingredients will be inserted in these mixers by other system (out of our scope)

however, they require us to design such a system that they will be required to change the volume of this Egg solution fed to all three of the mixers.

The feeding will be done in a closed circuit using a single pump.
Such that delivery point at a time, may be 1, 2 or 3. each controlled by a separate actuator.
The maximum feed rate is 100Kg per hour.


Some of my Major concerns, in this scenario are;

1) What if the flow meter's flow is inconsistent, possibly when all 3 delivery points are active, the delivery at the last stage may be effected. (and if there be air in this solution?)

Apparently it seems a physically operated Flow meter may not be a very good choice, can someone highlight a suitable technology considering the constant use (24hrs / 6days per week), possibility of cleaning these in-between deliveries and the product to be used?

2) design of CIP system, especially since the line will be running for 24/6. we can lay two closed circuits, one may do the CIP (clean in process) while other is feeding, but seems waste of money, I would really appreciate some assistance on the design.

3) Also what type of signal output from the Flow meters are we talking about, Analogs or digital, what pros and cons do these systems have.

Thanks and regards,

 

[parky]

I agree in using E&H Promag or the more expensive coriolis (very accurate & air does not effect the accuracy).
Use the pulse output to plc (if high speed then use interrupts to count the pulses).

 

[danw]

>>Such that delivery point at a time, may be 1, 2 or 3. each controlled by a separate actuator.

If more than one mixer can be filled from the supply line at the same time, then for the best accuracy, you'll need a separate flow meter for each mixer, because the pressure difference/drop between the discharge points will not guarantee equal flows through each discharge point.

If there's air in the pipe, all accuracy bets are off. ALL conventional flow meters assume a full pipe, and that means full of liquid, not a two phase mixture of liquid and air. Some flow meters will fault at a certain percentage of entrained air, others will read, but with an error.

Flow meters should be installed in a vertical pipe with upward flow to ensure, to the geratest degree, a full pipe.

 

[automation2k]

How to select the Feeding pump for Egg?

Thanks Danw & Parky for your assistance.

I have another question, though not related to PLC, but maybe you can point where I can get it validated.

In this scenario, I have following data

1) The distance of Pipe (horizontal & vertical)
2) Number of bends
3) Number of delivery points
4) mass/volume of product required at each point and within what time frame.
5) characteristics of the fluid (whole Egg) (viscosity, conductivity, density, etc)

Can someone please point how to identify what pump pressure I will require. I am not comfortable with the idea of the Pump supplier saying "this will work"
I want to understand the fundamental, most if not all.

would appreciate all your help.

 

[automation2k]

Conductivity?

Parky,

E&H reps. here are asking for 'conductivity' for Whole egg, if I go for coriolis.

Can you help on this?

Regards,

 

[parky]

Sorry I can't, all the projects I have done the hardware has been sourced by others I have only done the software & commissioning so assume that sort of thing must have been done by them.
However my thinking is that as i did with the magflow type I created a function to scale the pulses i.e. add a factor so for water it = 1.0 1 pulse = 1 ltr & for other viscosity sauces I multiplied by a factor depending on the viscosity.
This way the flow meters were set up at 1 pulse per litre & scaled in the plc, I'm not sure about the coriolis but this should work.
To be honest we always check the calibration even if previously set by the manufacturer by dosing a known amount & weighing.

 

[danw]

1) The requirement for the conductivity of the fluid is to determine whether a magnetic flowmeter can be used. If the fluid's conductivity is not high enough for a magmeter to function properly, then your vendor will probably recommend a straight tube Coriolis meter with sanitary fittings.

2) >Flow meters, Analogs or digital, what pros and cons do these systems have.

a) Analog flow rate outputs can be totalized, but there are issues with PLCs' whose scans can vary because a varying scan rate introduces error, or where analog scanning isn't quite fast enough. There have been various discussion on this forum about analog totalizing error.

b) Flow rate digital outputs can be counted to achieve a total, as long as a pulse isn't missed. That depends on the scan rate for normal DI's, but in some cases a high speed pulse card is used to ensure that pulses are not missed.

c) In one or two cases, each on a dedicated line where the batching setpoint is always the same, I am aware of a user using the flow meter's internal totalizer and using the flow meter's relay output to signal the PLC that the total has been achieved.

3) Here in the US, the public expectation is that processed food is safe. Unsafe food is unacceptable. Hence process pasteurization, sterilization and CIP is highly regulated by governmental agencies. Failures (food poisoning and deaths) are highly publicized and are known to ruin the businesses involved. Having been personally involved with instrumentation for pharmaceutical CIP process OQ validation, I won't touch comments on CIP. A CIP system requires experienced, professional engineering.

 

[parky]

I agree The stringent requirements here in the UK also require any CIP system to be foolproof, you should not be involved in such processes unless you fully understand them.
First of all the process & CIP system must be designed in such a way that no contamination can occur.
Secondly the CIP process must be controlled in such a way that the whole process must complete to remove any possible contamination from the process, I will not go into the requirements required here in the UK as a little knowledge is dangerous I suggest you get some expert help on the cleaning of a plant that contains food stuffs.
I have been programming process & CIP systems for some 30 years & it is not for the novice.

 

[OkiePC]

Parky,

E&H reps. here are asking for 'conductivity' for Whole egg, if I go for coriolis.

Can you help on this?

Regards,

Can you proved the rep. with a sample of your products to test?

 

[automation2k]

No to Conductivity!!

Can you proved the rep. with a sample of your products to test?

Nope, that wont be feasible, the Reps. here are just reps!

I mean they do not have a facility / instrument to conduct testing.

I am however, curios, that

(1)how much conductivity would change and what would be its impact, for an EGG from our region (ASIA) to that available elsewhere.
A Commonly available product 'EGG', and they want me to send a sample to US?

 

[danw]

I suspect eggs themselves are the same, but how they are processed could easily differ. Drinking water (used for food processing) tends to be quite conductive, so an 'egg' mixture might have more or less water depending on how it is produced and how much water is introduced in the processing.

A sample test with a conductivity meter giving a reading like 32uS (microSiemens) (just an example) should suffice for a magmeter spec, which might have a spec like minimum 20uS conductivity for water.

Shipping it to the USA for a conductivity test seems to be overly complicated, though.

Many plant labs will have a conductivity meter.