How to maintain fountain height in SLC?

Hi,

I'm sorry the number of 1746-OW16 is 3 units. Our system is designed in such way that:

1) One round pond with 2 rings (inner and outer ring)of water switches.
2) Each water switches is divided into 2 valves.
3) Each ring consists of 16 valves.
4) Lastly, one inner jet which is directly connected to the pump, with flow rate of 56m3/hr, 5.5KW
5) Pump for inner ring is 70m3/hr flow rate with 7.5KW.
6) Pump for outer ring is 40m3/hr flow rate with 3KW.


Please let me know the best way of solving my problem.

Thanks.

Regards,
CK Chew
 
A pump tries to provide so much volume per unit of time.

The pump tries to maintain that rate of delivery.

Let's assume that the pump outlet is connected to a manifold, and the manifold has several nozzles in various sizes - from very small to very large. The nozzles are pointed upward. Let's say that the diameter of the pipe between the pump and manifold is larger than the pump outlet. Let's say the same thing about the diameter of the manifold. Let's also say that the diameter of one of the nozzles is as large as the diameter of the manifold - that nozzle would be larger than the pump outlet.

Let's further say that all of the nozzles are of the same height and that their upper edges describe a straight, horizontal line.



+--+ +----+ +------+ +--------+
| | | | | | | |
--+ +---+ +---+ +---+ +---- etc...

MANIFOLD

-------------------------------------------



.

Open all of the nozzles and turn on the pump.

Water will be coming out of all of the nozzles - some more so than others.

The total amount of water through the nozzles in x-seconds will be equal to the total amount of water from the pump in those x-seconds.

The water is distributed among those nozzles in a manner that is inversely proportional to the resistance to flow that each nozzle presents to the source.

The largest nozzle offers the lowest restriction, thus the lowest resistance. That nozzle experiences the most volume of water.
All of the other nozzles offer more and more restriction as their orifices get smaller. As the nozzles get smaller and smaller, they experience smaller and smaller volumes of water.

Since the nozzle ends are at the same level, and since water tends to seek its own level, water will be present at the tops of each nozzle. I shouldn't expect to see the water doing anything more than simply "over flowing" at the nozzle tips. That is, I wouldn't expect to see any "height" to the escaping water.

So... because the large nozzle (and supply pipe and manifold) are of a diameter larger than the source (the pump), the "net restriction" is "0-what-cha-ma-callits". This huge amount of water is being provided at what appears to be "0-psi!" The velocity of the water at the nozzles appears to be somewhere near zero. There has to be at least some velocity - the water is moving, after all. But the nozzle-velocity (muzzle-velocity) is very, very close to zero. Near-Zero velocity translates into Near-Zero height.

Now, close the largest nozzle.

The pump continues to provide the same volume. An equal amount of water is still leaving the nozzles. However, with the large nozzle closed, the volume is distributed across fewer and smaller nozzles. In this case, the net restriction is greater than zero. A pressure develops in the manifold. In order to have the same volume of water escape, the velocity at each nozzle must increase.

You now see the water developing height. The height of the water escaping from each nozzle should be consistent. They won't be the same but, assuming that the pump is reasonably consistent, they should remain consistent relative to each other.

Continue to close off the largest remaining valves, one at a time. The water height at the remaining nozzles becomes progressively higher and higher.

With only the smallest nozzle remaining open, the pressure in the manifold is at its greatest (unless you close all nozzles). Look at the height of the water column. It will be such-n-such.

Now, pick any of the closed nozzles (except the largest) and open it. What happens to the height of the water at the smallest nozzle? It changes - it gets lower. Close the nozzle you just opened. The water column resumes its previous height.

Repeat the test using various nozzles and various nozzle combinations - all the time watching the height of the column at the smallest nozzle. Repeat several of the combinations to see if the results are not consistent - they will be consistent!

So... with the smallest nozzle being used as the primary nozzle and the other nozzles being used as "trimmers", you can produce, and reproduce, any proportional fraction of height at the smallest nozzle. Instead of aiming the "trimmer" nozzles upward, aim them downward or back into the supply tank.

You will have to play a "sizing game" with the various "trimmers" to ensure that you end up with the expected heights. I suggest using "trimmers" that are sized in a binary fashion... 0^2, 1^2, 2^2, 3^2... etc. Then correlate the various heights to a binary value. Then apply the binary number to the bank of trimmers.

Sending "1" turns on trimmer "A"
Sending "2" turns on trimmer "B"
Sending "3" turns on trimmer "A & B"
Sending "4" turns on trimmer "C"
Sending "5" turns on trimmer "A & C"
...etc.
 
Hi,

Anyone can explain theoritically & pratically why the method suggested, controlling the on & off of the valves using a very fast timer won't work?

Basically, I think when the valves are once opened, it'll shot to the maximum height and I won't be able to get the desire height that I need.
Secondly, when different valves are opened, different pressure will be implied, thus the height of the valves that opened will also be different, this will make the timing setting a killing work!!
Thanks.

Regards,
CK Chew
 
Well, CK, you may be in a world of hurt here.

To answer your question on the VFDs, I'll resort to the old standard "It depends". Different VFD models have different characteristics, but generally they have three or four pre-set speeds, each requiring one discrete output. The speed corresponding to each preset is adjusted from the drive configuration keypad.

If you use the jog up and jog down it will require two discrete ouputs, but you will need an analog input to the PLC to monitor the actual speed.

The fast cycling of the valves is going to be a problem on two fronts. First, the result will probably be a series of short bursts of flow, each going to the height determined by it's velocity. The fluid dynamics of this system will require considerable analysis or feild testing.

Second, since I assume these are solenoid valves, you are going to burn out the valves or the controlling relays if you try to cycle them very very fast on a repeated basis. The solenod supplier should be able to give you duty cycle limits.
 
Last edited:
as you only have digital just use two solenoids in parrallel.
for a bit of analog rising in your box you can use a big pipe connected next to it and it will fill up slow about 5 seconds for example and then maintain its height thats how i did it.
as this was 20 years ago without converters or proportional valves.
 
Thanks everyone, let me go to site and c what's I can do to save! Else most of the patterns have to change...and I don't think our cust will agree with this...

Regards,
CK Chew
Mr. STuck :)
 
Hi everyone,

I just came back from site, where the fountain should be install.

The pump that we are using is a 'on' 'off' pump, meaning that there is no speed variable at the pump.

The water switches is from Crsytal FOuntains, NWS100A200. But only can find NWS100 series from their website. The link is :

http://www.crystalfountains.com/cli...Mainengine.nsf/web/home_frameset?opendocument

Stating the the water switch can do switching of 10 times per seconds, anyone think this can give me a variable height of the water level shooting out from the valves? Normally the height is shooting up to 1.5m, varies to 0.9, 0.6 or 0.3 meters. The agent of the water switch mention to us that 0.3 m height can be achieve by switching the waterswitch on and off 10 times per second, but the websites mention this can be done only by variable speed pump.

As Tom mentioned, i think a few short burst will be coming out from the valves, but at least there is differences in height, will it ?

Any comment from the experience guy/guru out there?

Thanks.

Regards,
CK Chew
 
Last edited:
I thought this was clear.

Two valves in parallel and one nozzle

One valve should provide the 90% fountain height. Two on/off valves in parallel provide the 100% fountain height. It may take a manual valve in series with each of the parallel valves to provide a manual adjust of the flow to provide exactly 90% and 100%. Ajust the 90% flow first and then the 100% flow.

Simple.
 
Hi everyone,

Thanks for all the reply. The fountain job already done. Regarding the height issue, we tried on / off the water switch in fast mode, but as suspect, it won't work. So have to discuss with the customer to settle with the current pattern.

For bursting pattern (vertical).
Bursting means cycling the waterswitch (valve) on and off a couple of times in a second. Recommended that the vertical is tilt ( 5 - 10 degree) so that when the second burst shot up, it won't clash with the first burst that is coming down. Otherwise the burst will look like 'splash' not that nice! Just my 2 cents. Thanks.

Regards,
CK Chew
 
I am also in the same process and I decided to use hand valves prior to each nozzle to allow for elevation as I am doing this on a hill. So far this has worked for me and I am still planning. got ideas?

Dave
 
Peter Nachtwey said:
Two valves in parallel and one nozzle

One valve should provide the 90% fountain height. Two on/off valves in parallel provide the 100% fountain height. It may take a manual valve in series with each of the parallel valves to provide a manual adjust of the flow to provide exactly 90% and 100%. Ajust the 90% flow first and then the 100% flow.

Simple.

Peters Right, It's the simplest way. I delt with this way back, and found that out after a lot of jerking around with pulsing, accumulators & bypasses etc..
 

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