Legacy HMI replacement: Allen Bradley 2711-K6C5, Ser B.

[AutomationTechBrian]

I had another legacy HMI replacement fall in my lap. A good customer of mine lost the program out of an old PanelView 600 (I'll attach some photos). I don't know why the program would be lost on this PV, but fortunately there is a twin machine (fraternal twin, maybe) right next to it that has a slightly newer series PV 600. The program that should be the same, or at least close enough to work with. I suspect I'm going to see more and more of this, and I don't have experience determining the best solution to replacing this HMI. I see in Google there are refurbished PVs available. Probably the easiest thing would be to find a replacement that matches the newer PV, so I could upload the file (PanelBuilder 32, I believe) and download into the refurbished HMI. Are there other (quick) solutions I should consider? It communicates with a SLC 5/04 over the serial port. I don't know what I don't know about this, and I'd like to get your thoughts & experience on this. Any quirks, or "gotchas"?

The affected Panelview:
ERROR: 1110, No valid Application.
CAT: 2711-K6C5, SER B
REV B, FRN 3.13

The twin PV with a program:
2711-K6C5, SER C
REV D, FRN 4.46

Thanks!

 

[Ken Roach]

Thank you for the concise and well-edited photo collage !

>Any quirks, or "gotchas"?

I think of them affectionately through the lens of nostalgia.

The older PV Standard's malfunction is probably permanently fatal. That 1110 Error code, and the "0 bytes used" really does mean that the flash memory that holds the user application is empty, even though the boot and operating system firmware memory looks intact.

Is there a PCMCIA memory card installed ? I don't think the old PanelView Standards could be set up to load from a removable memory card automatically; you had to go into the configuration menus and load/save. And the original 2711-Mxx cards were an unpopular type called Linear Flash, incompatible with modern ATA Flash readers; you actually needed a special PC drive from a company called DataBook.

Good news: PV Standards with v3 or v4 firmware also support ATA Flash, including <16 GB CompactFlash cards formatted in FAT16 style in a Type II PCMCIA carrier.

There were four different variants of PanelView Standard with DH485 networking: the final character of the part number could be 2, 3, 5, or 9.

I double-checked my recollection: the "5" means that it's physically RS-232, but the protocol is Data Highway 485. That's consistent with it being plugged into an SLC-5/04's serial port, which will also be configured for DH485.

Some other variants of PV Standard had a second port that could be switched between Printing and RS-232 Download/Upload. The "5" does not, so you definitely need to be able to download to it with a DH485 interface or a memory card.

The best modern interface is the 1747-UIC, either from RA or the excellent third-party sold by PLCCables.com.

 

[Ken Roach]

the best solution to replacing this HMI.

My personal preference would be to modify the cutout to support a Maple Systems touchscreen HMI running Windows 10 IoT Professional, and migrate the application to Aveva Edge (formerly Indusoft Web Studio).

Or, I'd get an older PanelView Plus 600 or 700 and install that, because I have both a few on hand and a lot of experience with FactoryTalk View.

Both platforms have an import "wizard" / utility that will convert most of the screens and tag databases. Both can do almost any function that the original PanelView could do, and many of their own.

My opinions have swung more strongly toward PC-based HMIs lately because I'm a little more comfortable locking them down from updates/security/sabotage/fingerpoking, and because I recently had a customer's system that is very high-profile in my area go down, and was able to bring it back up in just a few hours with a generic Windows PC platform and my Indusoft activation dongle. The funny part is that the PC we scavenged in a hurry was a cash register POS terminal and we had to ask guests of the client to please not post Instagram photos of the machine running on restaurant hardware that night during a special event.

That system ordinarily runs on a 7 inch industrial touchscreen PC from Maple Systems, and they happen to have stock that they can ship in just two days. Getting almost any other purpose built HMI would probably take months.

For your application, anything with Windows and a serial port will do, and you can connect directly to the SLC-5/04. You'll probably need a 1747-UIC to connect with the current DH485 protocol settings, and then switch it to good old asynchronous uses-any-serial-port DF1 Full Duplex protocol.

 

[AutomationTechBrian]

Thank you for the concise and well-edited photo collage !


The best modern interface is the 1747-UIC, either from RA or the excellent third-party sold by PLCCables.com.

I'm very visual, so I do my best to add relevant pics. ...but I do know that you notice when it's good.

Thanks for the communication interface info. After I posted, it donned on me that I had forgotten to ask. I bought Tim's bundle (TW Controls) of AB cables a long time ago. (In fact, about the only thing left on my AB cable wish-list is a 1784-U2DHP.)

I think I'll look at getting a rebuilt PV600 (as long as I'm understanding you as saying that would be a reasonable choice.) I'm getting a lot of things on my plate, and that seems the quickest and most straight-forward. I'm still hoping my other customer will approve the PV 1200 upgrade that we chatted about a couple weeks ago.

For whatever reason, I seem to see a lot of Maple Systems HMIs used at customers that are Machinist facilities. I still haven't ventured down that path... I know nothing about that programming software, although I'm sure the day will come. This is the first time I'm heard of Aveva Edge, so I'll browse it to see what it's about.

As far as PC-based HMIs, I did get started with Ignition for use as a machine panel. I have an On-logic PC and a Hope Industrial System touchscreen on the shelf next to me right now. That project has so many material delays, that it's set aside for a while.

 

[AutomationTechBrian]

Ah.... you said PanelView *Plus* 600, not PanelView 600. I would possibly need to check out the file conversion utility. The old PV has the number buttons:

 

[AutomationTechBrian]

Avena.... = Wonderware? (Wow. I don't get out much.) They make it hard to see any pricing for their edge product. ...Although I'm guessing it is more than Ignition Edge.

 

[Ken Roach]

Poor Indusoft was swallowed up in a series of acquisitions that left their flagship product exposed to the tender mercies of marketing teams. When Schneider Electric bought them, they already owned Wonderware so Indusoft Web Studio became "Wonderware Indusoft Web Studio", then after Aveva bought those software companies from Schneider, they became "Aveva Edge 2020" or now "Aveva Edge".

I have no idea if Aveva's marketing people considered the confusion with other products named "Edge", including Inductive Automation Ignition Edge.

I use it because it's a very mature, well-supported Windows HMI that can run on a wide variety of hardware. Sure, VBScript is not as powerful as Python, and the integration with SQL isn't as tight as Ignition, and the drivers aren't as automagical as FactoryTalk, and the graphics aren't quite as extensible and flexible as vector-graphics products.

Maple Systems makes both HMI devices with dedicated HMI software, and general-purpose Windows PCs that can run anything.

The last small runtime license I bought for a small 300-tag HMI was $400, but of course I already own larger Development license keys.

Unfortunately we've been bumped down the OEM priority scale by Aveva and now I have to purchase from an old Wonderware distributor in my area, a personally and professionally unpleasant experience.

 

[AutomationTechBrian]

We're going to kick the can down the road on this one. We're going to find a used PV600 and try uploading and using the file from the "twin" machine to get these guys running. My office is asking me about what they should be looking for in choosing a replacement. I looked at the firmware on the PV I'll be uploading from... 4.46. I looked at the choices in my PB32 software... 4.10 - 4.xx. If I'm not mistaken, I don't care about SER or REV, as much as FRN... anything 4.10 - 4.xx. Am I right?

At some point, we might do something different. But time is more valuable right now.

 

[Ken Roach]

Yes, any 3.1x or newer firmware will work for this application. Certainly any v4 firmware.

In general the firmware in these units is field installable and included with PanelBuilder32. The SLC-500 and DH485 related features and functions didn't change in later firmware.